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  1. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 12:08pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Nasty half-guard pass - counters?

    The latest rage in our BJJ club is a half-guard pass like this:
    The guy on the bottom has your right leg trapped. Bring your left arm across his body, pushing his left arm up towards hs head to stretch him out; put weight on his body. Your back is facing his head, as you use your right hand to work your leg out of there and go to mount.

    When I'm on the bottom in this position, none of the things I used to do from half-guard work. I can't move my hips, I can't underhook, I can'tmove to his back, I don't get pressure on his neck. This sucks.

    Does anyone have advice on how to prevent this pass, other than "don't get into that situation"?
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  2. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 12:48pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is a strong pass.

    Its weakness is that his entire body is laying on yours and his left arm is committed. Like I just said, his body is laying on top of yours. Meaning the oopah style roll is going to be more effective than if he were laying beside you. Another weakness is that he cannot pin your shoulder and head the way he might be able to in a traditional half guard pass.

    People do that pass at our school also. I have found my BEST defense is not to allow them to turn their body completely to the right. You probably know what I mean here. There is a moment between when they get underneath your left armpit and when they are able to turn themselves around somewhat to face your legs. It is THIS moment when I strike.

    My right arm is free. I grab around his waist to control his hips and not allow him to sit beside me when I make my move and he loses position. My left arm is basically useless but I still try to go under his left armpit for a sort of reverse-underarm control. When wearing the gi I just grab the back of the collar.

    Okay...so whats the move?

    The 'move' is risky.

    On bottom my right leg is still wrapped around holding half guard, but real quick I have to let my left leg go and use it as a 'hook' with the arch of my foot under his right leg. I am going to lift him by bringing my knee up. He of course is going to be fighting that and trying to extricate his leg. The mistake is trying to 'flip' him over with some sort of scissor motion or something with that leg. Don't do that. Try to lift him up and then use your right arm around his hip to PULL him back over. If you can keep his leg trapped he will go right over. This is sometimes easier to say than to do.

    In essence you are just going to oopah him over to his back, which is difficult from the 'traditional' half guard because he can just post behind him with his trapped leg the moment you let it go to oopah. In this case you cant really oopah him by letting the leg go and posting, you 'lift' him with a foot hook and use your arms to turn his upper body and hips.

    Now, as I said this is risky because you releast that leglock half guard. The risk is somewhat nullified by the fact that you MIGHT be able to oopah over to his LEFT side if your sweep fails and he gets his leg out. After all, his back is to you and he is weak to his top left corner as he blocked himself by turning around. So keep that in mind, the oopah to YOUR right is the failsafe move, or plan B.
  3. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 1:41pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yrkoon9 again."

    Will try that, thanks. Any other suggestions?
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 1:58pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For a cheap ass move you can use your left arm and grab around his neck and try to crank him backwards if he was dumb enough not to tuck his head.

    Another even RISKIER move than the first is to simply attack his OTHER leg as he passes your half guard.

    Let me explain.

    When he uses that pass his body is ON TOP of yours. Meaning... his hips aren't touching the ground very well. A sneaky bastard. A real sneaky bastard will use the moment just as he passes your half guard and yanks his right leg backwards to attack his left leg. Your left leg would simply stomp down between his right leg behind his knee and pull it toward you. Of course your right leg needs to complete the half guard, so it has to be pulled back and then snaked under his leg. But since his hips are on top of you and he is turned away it should be MUCH easier than a traditional half-guard pass.

    The trick of doing this little bit of sneakiness is to use your RIGHT hand, the one that you thought was useless against the back of his left leg and 'push' it toward that little leg grab you just did. You will have to be bent backwards somewhat to reach his leg. But you dont really have to do much pushing, you are blocking it more than anything. You just don't want him to be able to instanly release his (originally trapped) leg and then swing his hips back and get a comfortable side control.

    Now all of this has to be right on the money in terms of timing. Just as he passes and releases his leg you go right after his other one. Out of the frying pan and into the fire so to speak. Your problem isn't soved however since you are once again in the half guard. It just sets up another opportunity, either for you to sweep or him to pass. If you just sit there like a board you get to watch him readjust and use that same pass again just on the other side.

    Neither of these moves are high percentage moves. They are more like 'oh ****' type moves. Like you have gotten yourself in a bad position and you have to make something happen. That pass you described is pretty strong and there are no easy solutions. Especially for heavier guys on top. You can either sit there and watch him pass and then try to deal with escaping side control, or you can throw a hail mary and see what happens. Either way if you mess up you are sitting in side control.
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:03pm

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     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I take it striking is out...

    So, I am curious to see if I am picturing this the right way:
    You, applying the half guard to one of his legs.
    Him, Left arm under you, either on his left side or moving to give you his back, his right hand prying his captured leg out of the halg guard.

    Correct?

    Gi or no-gi?
  6. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:26pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    > I take it striking is out...
    Yeah, but even if... striking the back of his head with all of his weight on my body doesn't sound like it would get me anywhere.

    >So, I am curious to see if I am picturing this the right way:
    > You, applying the half guard to one of his legs.
    >Him, Left arm under you,
    Sort of. His left elbow in my armpit or on my left triceps, his left hand on the ground.
    > either on his left side or moving to give you his back,
    on the left side. Think reverse kesa gatame (not quite, but similar).
    > his right hand prying his captured leg out of the halg guard.
    Yup.


    > Gi or no-gi?
    I've seen it mostly in no-gi, but it seems to work in gi as well.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  7. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No chance to get in a gi choke?
  8. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:39pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A gi choke... I haven't tried, but the angles are not very good. I can possibly grab his collar with my left hand, but neither kata-ha jime nor hadaka jime are much of an option because his back is keeping the distance between my right arm and his shoulder/neck.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:46pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, his left elbow is in your left arm pit and his right hand is working the pass, so your free hand is the right one ?
  10. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2005 3:56pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Both hands will be free, but all you can really do is grab his ass. His weight is on top of you, crushing your ribs and diaphram. Like I said earlier, your options are limited. The 2 techniques I described are probably 2 of your best bets and they are pretty iffy.

    If you can reach back around him with your left arm and push him away you might make enough space to make a half guard sweep work. But if they are able to get under your armpit you are pretty much dead and anything you do is a crapshoot, you are in an inferior position.
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