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  1. deus ex machina is offline
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    ***ned

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 2:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: i

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As a personal choice I have separated myself from the Sayoc Kali system as well as any sort of weapons based fighting in general. I would say that 95% of practitioners of weapons based arts will never use their knowledge in the real word, and if anything, be prone to escalating a non-deadly physical confrontation into an assault with a deadly weapon. I would say that most people period will never be in a life-threatening situation involving weapons.

    Which is okay. I don't practice BJJ because it'll make me fight better, I do BJJ because it's fun. So if you're doing it because you enjoy it, that's fine. All I'm concerned with is the militant attitude many FMA/weapons-based systems promote, as well as general paranoia.

    But that's for another thread.

    Personally, I feel that the Sayoc system is, at it's core, a money-making organization. On top of membership fees to the Sayoc organization, the cost of instruction comes with a very high premium. Some people are comfortable with that, but I'm not. On one hand, you have instructors telling you not to show what they're showing you to anyone else, and on the other hand, the Sayoc organization releases DVD's available to the public on the same material. You're encouraged to purchase a "rig" along with a bevy of aluminum training blades (usually around $50 each). "Official Sayoc Training Blades" of course. There are other things that I did not like, but thats the core of it.

    But otherwise, I just have a problem with FMA in general.


    EDIT: These are just my personal experiences.
    Last edited by deus ex machina; 1/24/2005 2:25pm at .
  2. poidog is offline
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    Competition Team Tag...yes?

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 2:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, DBMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even though Deus and I disagree on almost every level, he makes a great point. Why are you looking to study with the Sayocs? For fun? For self-defense? If you've seen some of their drills, and liked it, why not study with them? Personally, I've seen both Tuhon Tom Kier and Tuhon Chris Sayoc move, and think that with blades in their hands, they'd eviscerate most any opponent. Yeah, Tuhon Chris is a big boy, but so what. Cus D'Amato has turned out some of the most feared fighters in boxing - hell, he guided THE most feared boxer to championship. Tuhon Chris is a trainer, he turns out very good fighters. I like the Sayocs and I like what they have to offer. I don't currently train with them because of a) location and b) cost. I couldn't afford it right now even if I was near them. But cost does not equal waste of money.

    Ultimately, figure it out for yourself. Ignore Kungfoolss because he's an idiot. Kreese sounds like an idiot. Deus and I don't agree but I respect him and his opinions.
    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa
  3. John Kreese is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 2:36pm


     Style: Escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An idiot? Thats your opinion.

    Someone asked for opinions on the style and having taken a few seminars I gave my opinion .I talked about what I observed.Have you trained in Sayoc Kali? I havent had extensive training but I saw enough to know that its a waste of time. Want to know how to use a blade,practice the 3 of 9 ,thats all you need to know,or for that matter , any combination of attacks will do. You dont need "isolation of transition drills 5 count smoking knife drills #1 to 36."Hey go become the Katipunan di punong guro of the system ,thats cool with me. I was just detailing my experience with it..deus is spot on with his asessment of weapons training ...and you agree with him ,but im an idiot. :bduh:
  4. poidog is offline
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    Competition Team Tag...yes?

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 2:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, DBMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by John Kreese
    An idiot? Thats your opinion.
    Wow, you have a firm grasp on the obvious. You have your opinion, I have mine. That's how these opinion threads work.

    And yes, you still sound like an idiot.
    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa
  5. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 3:15pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The 3 of 9.

    My body still hurts from when Deus stabbed me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  6. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 4:18pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_steve
    poidog will have many positive things to say.

    ..., even ramming one another's head into a tree and drawing blood from scalp wounds and such.
    That's just retarded. I doubt you'd ever see Rickson Gracie doing something as idiotic as that.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  7. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 4:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by John Kreese
    some RBSD knife defenses,this guy wants you to block and parry ,hes training you to do drills not to respond to an attack,"oh but the drills DO teach that!" yeah ,sure they do...What are the Tagalog terms for "conditioned and relfexive response?"
    Rote training is primarily a left-brain mechanism, while a surprise or unforeseen attack has little or nothing to do with muscle memory; a function of the right half of the brain. Under a surprise attack you'll react automatically as you've trained your body to do, but if the variable is different than what you've trained for through the repetitive process, you'll freeze and get hurt, this is due to the left side of the brain which can only analyze the actions only after they have occurred and not spontaneously. This is the problem with left-brain training curriculums.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  8. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 4:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    If you are curious, go and see for yourself. Clearly John Kreese has an issue with it. Keep what he says in mind, but keep your mind open. Also, if you search this site, there have been threads on Sayoc Kali before. If I remember correctly most people are fairly positive on the style.

    If you feel that they are teaching you something, and it is worth the price, then do it. If not, then pass. As long as they aren't asking ridiculous money up front and a long contract, what's the harm in making your own judgements?
    Why waste one's time listening to what some fat slob has to say on hand to weapon combat?
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  9. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2005 5:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just wanted to second Poi's comments. I've trained with Chris in a seminar scenario. And I've worked with a few people in his downline. His stuff is good, but expensive. The the instructors in his organization are solid. If you're interested in learning a knife based art, it's a good choice if you want to spend the money.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  10. Kultra is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2005 4:01am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by poidog
    Even though Deus and I disagree on almost every level, he makes a great point. Why are you looking to study with the Sayocs? For fun? For self-defense? If you've seen some of their drills, and liked it, why not study with them? .
    I'm mainly doing this for fun but also in case I ever do have to defend myself with a knife I have the knowledge and skill to do so.
    Sadly I haven't seen them in action but I wanted to learn an art that wasn't empty hands and Sayoc Kali seems like a good idea. Since I don't trust online videos I decided it would be best to make this thread

    This school has classes Monday and Wednesday from 7:30 to 9 and 7am to 11am on saturday for 110 a month. Because of my work schedule I'll only be able to make it to the 4 hour classes so another reason for posting this thread is to make sure I'm not wasting my money and more importantly time

    Also what exactly is the difference betweem sayoc kali and kali?
    is sayoc trying to do what the gracies did with jui jitsu and make it more efficient and more on technique or something?

    and what about escrima, kali and arnis, are they all the same art with a different name or do they use different weapons or are more on technique or strength/speed?

    I'd like peoples opinions on escrima, kali and arnis also since so far I see a lot of bad stuff here about sayoc
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