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  1. Bokfutopher is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    20

    Posted On:
    12/24/2006 6:06pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    West Wind Schools "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"

    I believe that every system of Martial Arts is good in its own aspects. I do not believe that any one system is better than another. I do believe that the system is what you make of it. I do believe that one martial artist can be better than another, not because of the type of system they belong to, but rather their level of talent, amount of practise and effort they put into learning and becoming better, and if he has the killer instinct it takes to win. Some are just better fighters just like some are better runners or better singers. It does not matter what school you go to for singing lessons, they can only improve you to what your abilities will allow. My point is you cant turn everyone into a Bruce Lee or Jet Li no matter what system you study.

    This is a story about West Wind Karate Schools. Bare with me through this and you might find it interesting. I am going to try and explain everything from how it used to be till now. I joined West Wind back in 1994, this is when it was still good. Back then Ron Lee owned and operated these schools, he was the master instructor. He had a man by the name of Allen Hubbard who was his chief instructor at the time. Below him was Scott Flint the assistant chief instructor and 4 senior head instructors. On top of this there was an head instructor, assistant head instructor, director, level 2, and level 1 instructors at each school. Ron Lee started by taking lessons from a man named Ron Cuvlier at East West Karate Schools. Ron Lee purchased the Berkeley school for Ron Cuvlier back in the late 60s early 70s. Ron Lee's last name is not actually Lee either it is Leskoschek, I think I am spelling that correctly, he is polish. He changed it because little kids could not pronounce his name and started calling him Mr. Lee. After buying the Berkeley East West School he renamed it West Wind and called his style Bok Fu, which means white tiger. He named it this because all of the teachers at the time were caucasion and the style he taught was agressive. He taught everyone that what they were learning was Kenpo. In fact he taught us that the style that he taught originated with the late Grand Master Edmund K. Parker, also known as the "Father of American Martial Arts". This is when they still had awsome instructors like Mr. Kelley, Mr. Loubauch, Mr. Zwior and Mr. Rad and so on. Back when I joined Mr. Lee had opened 7 different schools through out the Bay Area, in Berkeley, Alameda, Daily City, Richmond, Vallejo, Faifield, and Napa.

    I had taken Tae Kwon Do as a child, 9years old, for a couple of years. But had not studied again faithfully, until I joined West Wind. All the kicks that they used were the same, pretty much. Just little variations here and there, not enough to make a difference, and not all the kicks that they used in TKD were used in this system, most but not all. They also used the same blocks, hand strikes, and stances as well. Everything came pretty quick to me, so I moved through the ranks pretty quickly. I liked it because it gave you an sequence of moves you could practice for a particular attack. Not that every attack happens the way you want it to, or that you can plan how an attack is going to be played out, but you can get used to putting moves together and you can change them to fit your situation. It is just like the Katas you learn in just about every style, you cant use them in a fight per say, but they are good for practicing your basics, increasing the strenghth and speed of your strikes and so on.

    There belt order went form White, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd degree, 2nd degree, 1st degree Brown, to Black Belt. Once I passed my purple belt test I was invited to attend Instructor Training. Which had three different phases. Instructor training 1a, Instructor training 2a also known as "Special squad", Instructor training 3a. I ended up passing all three levels, but did not end up teaching at that point. I had to many things going on in my life at that time. I ended up going through again after my blue belt test and passed all three levels and started teaching. I was not allowed to teach any material that I had not already passed a belt test for, as with all instructors who were not Black Belts. We wore Red Belts to signify that we were teachers, but every one knew we were not Black Belts. The head instructor had to be a black belt and he supervised and watched over what we were teaching. The head instructor would drop into a private lesson periodically to see how and what we were teaching.

    Stay tuned and it really gets into what they turned into once Ron Lee lost his system. Very juicy stuff.
  2. Red Elvis is offline
    Red Elvis's Avatar

    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Soviet State Of Kalifornia
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    2,201

    Posted On:
    12/24/2006 6:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bokfutopher
    I believe that every system of Martial Arts is good in its own aspects. I do not believe that any one system is better than another. I do believe that the system is what you make of it. I do believe that one martial artist can be better than another, not because of the type of system they belong to, but rather their level of talent, amount of practise and effort they put into learning and becoming better, and if he has the killer instinct it takes to win. Some are just better fighters just like some are better runners or better singers.
    Say my wife and I have quadruplets who are all male and are identical in every way. At age 18 they all simultaneously enroll each in a different martial arts school for exaclty 12 months.

    One does BJJ
    One does TKD
    One does Aikido
    One does MMA

    Are you saying that they will all be equals? That none of the above will produce better quality fighters over the other?
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  3. Backdraft is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    UmeŚ, Sweden/ Paris, France
    Posts
    1,235

    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 9:12am


     Style: Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, all martial arts are NOT equal. It is NOT only the person. There ARE styles that suck donkey dick. Search for Matt Thornton, and learn something.
  4. El-Wood is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Kanagawa, Japan
    Posts
    499

    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 10:28am


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you know, I had the pleasure of walking by West Wind on my way over to a friend's while in Berkeley recently and was tempted to step inside after the all the fun Bullshido has had at their expense...

    then I saw the guy in (I KID YOU NOT) some funky silk gi thing with a DRESS SHIRT AND TIE ON UNDER IT - I almost died laughing - I think he was offended but I am not a small man so obviously he repressed the urge to say anything...
  5. sdave is offline
    sdave's Avatar

    Banished to Fort Worth

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    Nov 2003
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    782

    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 10:47am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tl;dr...

    krotty sux...

    Every system is NOT "good in its own aspects" (wtf?)...

    It's very unlikey that anyone here will care if you've spelled Lee's original name correctly, nor those of any of his obscure instructors...

    krotty still sux...

    Welcome to Bullshido and Merry Christmas!!!
    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    That is exactly what I meant sdave. You are dead on, as usual.
  6. MacWombat is offline

    BJJ Suckee

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Westchester, NY / Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,131

    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 1:25pm


     Style: Relson GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Every system is good in its own aspects.... Hmmm, I guess aikido is good if its aspect is sucking. Also stop using nonstandard text. It doesn't make you an individual, it makes you annoying.
    I think only idiots assume that someone who trains for the ring can't make the switch to the street as soon as things change. - dweidman
  7. wingchundo is offline

    Welterweight

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    Oct 2003
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    643

    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 2:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe that every system of Martial Arts is good in its own aspects.
    No. See Yellow Bamboo.

    I do not believe that any one system is better than another.
    No. See Yellow Bamboo

    I do believe that the system is what you make of it.
    No. See Yellow Bamboo

    I do believe that one martial artist can be better than another, not because of the type of system they belong to, but rather their level of talent, amount of practise and effort they put into learning and becoming better, and if he has the killer instinct it takes to win. Some are just better fighters just like some are better runners or better singers.
    Thanks Capt. Obvious.

    It does not matter what school you go to for singing lessons, they can only improve you to what your abilities will allow.
    Wrong. If Tom Waitts or Bob Dylan is your singing teacher, you'll likely suck. No matter how hard you train. Quality instruction and quality instruction methods are too important. And a lot of martial arts schools have **** for both.

    My point is you cant turn everyone into a Bruce Lee or Jet Li no matter what system you study.
    Wrong. Both are/were actors and anyone can learn to use martial arts in movies just as well, if not better.

    This is a story about West Wind Karate Schools. Bare with me through this and you might find it interesting.
    Not doing so well up to this point, I don't have much hope.

    I am going to try and explain everything from how it used to be till now.
    Oh Christ.

    I joined West Wind back in 1994, this is when it was still good.
    I question your definition of "good."

    Back then Ron Lee owned and operated these schools, he was the master instructor. He had a man by the name of Allen Hubbard who was his chief instructor at the time. Below him was Scott Flint the assistant chief instructor and 4 senior head instructors. On top of this there was an head instructor, assistant head instructor, director, level 2, and level 1 instructors at each school. Ron Lee started by taking lessons from a man named Ron Cuvlier at East West Karate Schools. Ron Lee purchased the Berkeley school for Ron Cuvlier back in the late 60s early 70s.
    These names mean nothing.

    Ron Lee's last name is not actually Lee either it is Leskoschek, I think I am spelling that correctly, he is polish.
    Like shoe polish?

    He changed it because little kids could not pronounce his name and started calling him Mr. Lee.
    Did he teach only retarded children?

    After buying the Berkeley East West School he renamed it West Wind and called his style Bok Fu, which means white tiger. He named it this because all of the teachers at the time were caucasion and the style he taught was agressive.
    So if they were skinny Asians, would it have been Yellow Bamboo?

    He taught everyone that what they were learning was Kenpo. In fact he taught us that the style that he taught originated with the late Grand Master Edmund K. Parker, also known as the "Father of American Martial Arts".
    Thanks for the history lesson that no one needed.

    This is when they still had awsome instructors like Mr. Kelley, Mr. Loubauch, Mr. Zwior and Mr. Rad and so on. Back when I joined Mr. Lee had opened 7 different schools through out the Bay Area, in Berkeley, Alameda, Daily City, Richmond, Vallejo, Faifield, and Napa.
    Point?

    I had taken Tae Kwon Do as a child, 9years old, for a couple of years. But had not studied again faithfully, until I joined West Wind. All the kicks that they used were the same, pretty much. Just little variations here and there, not enough to make a difference, and not all the kicks that they used in TKD were used in this system, most but not all. They also used the same blocks, hand strikes, and stances as well. Everything came pretty quick to me, so I moved through the ranks pretty quickly.
    So was it TKD or Kenpo?

    I liked it because it gave you an sequence of moves you could practice for a particular attack. Not that every attack happens the way you want it to, or that you can plan how an attack is going to be played out, but you can get used to putting moves together and you can change them to fit your situation. It is just like the Katas you learn in just about every style, you cant use them in a fight per say, but they are good for practicing your basics, increasing the strenghth and speed of your strikes and so on.
    Katas suck. There is no application.

    There belt order went form White, Orange, Purple, Blue, Green, 3rd degree, 2nd degree, 1st degree Brown, to Black Belt. Once I passed my purple belt test I was invited to attend Instructor Training. Which had three different phases. Instructor training 1a, Instructor training 2a also known as "Special squad", Instructor training 3a. I ended up passing all three levels, but did not end up teaching at that point. I had to many things going on in my life at that time. I ended up going through again after my blue belt test and passed all three levels and started teaching.
    I can only imagine how much they charged you for all this.

    I was not allowed to teach any material that I had not already passed a belt test for, as with all instructors who were not Black Belts. We wore Red Belts to signify that we were teachers, but every one knew we were not Black Belts. The head instructor had to be a black belt and he supervised and watched over what we were teaching. The head instructor would drop into a private lesson periodically to see how and what we were teaching.
    This sounds reasonable.

    Stay tuned and it really gets into what they turned into once Ron Lee lost his system. Very juicy stuff.
    We already know what it turned into.

    Merry Christmas, stfu.

    Welcome to Bullshido.
    Last edited by wingchundo; 12/25/2006 2:31pm at .
  8. stvp is offline

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1

    Posted On:
    12/28/2006 2:02pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    More please....I'm tuned in and will probably have a story of my own to tell about WW.....need some decompression time first....
  9. Sam Browning is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,857

    Posted On:
    12/28/2006 2:41pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd love to hear the part about Ron Lee losing his system.
  10. jdinca is offline
    jdinca's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Nov 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,053

    Posted On:
    12/28/2006 3:53pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sigh. A couple of clarifications. Ron Lee never got above Brown Belt before he left East - West. Any rank designation above that was given to him by himself. The man he learned from is named Richard Lee (Cuveliere). Ron Lee did not name his system Bok Fu, that was done in 1972 by Richard Lee, the man who developed the system. The "Do" in Bok Fu Do was added in '94 when GM Al Tracy presented Richard Lee with his 10th degree BB. The only other 10th degree in Tracy Kenpo prior to that was GM Tracy himself. As of today, the only other addition to that has been Ray Arquilla.

    Bok Fu Do is based in EPAK and the Tracy Kenpo systems but has been expanded well beyond those. It does include all of the kicks of TKD but is influenced much more by cma, to the point that we are internationally recognized as a cma.

    If you so desire, here's a link that gives the history of the system and a disclaimer from GM Lee in regards to other schools that teach his system.

    http://216.25.101.46/BokFuDoHistory.aspx

    It's sad when people strike out on their own with no effort whatsoever to stay in touoh with the foundations of their training, or concern about maintaining the traditions of the system they teach. That is true Bullshido.
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