1/19/2005 11:33am, #1
Crossing the arm in triangle chokes
In Rigan Machado's book The Triangle, he teaches to always cross the trapped arm, and gives this as one of the main steps in the choke.
Other BJJ black belts like Roy Harris and Eddie Bravo teach that crossing the arm is not that important, and that the choke can be finished without it.
From your personal experience, what do you find to be the case?
1/19/2005 11:53am, #2
Karl Tanswell has said that the Brazillians always teach people to do it that way. That means that the Brazillians always have the advantage because they know its not necessary.Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
1/19/2005 11:59am, #3
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
We are taught to cross the arm.
But oddly enough we were having this conversation in class a few weeks ago. Somebody was talking about how it was neccesary to cross the arm to finish the choke, while another guy said it wasn't.
Basically what it came down to was that if you have the triangle sunk properly, even without the arm crossed, the person would tap out before the 10 second mark. They tried it a few times, and nearly everytime before the 10 second mark, with the person being subbed doing whatever they want with their arm, they still had to tap.
So there is my scientific evidence for you. :)
1/19/2005 12:10pm, #4
Not absolutely neccessary. But if the arm is crossed before the choke is set, under chin, than it REALLY helps the choke.
Sometimes if you wait until you get the arm in position to cinch the triangle you will lose the opportunity. So in those times you set the triangle then worry about what their arm is doing afterwards.
Personally I don't care where their arm is when I set the triangle. Because I know that finishing with the triangle is really only going to happen 50% of the time. I might transition to the armbar, maybe go to the armbar WITH the triangle, or go to omoplata, etc. All based on what they are going to do with that arm.
1/19/2005 12:22pm, #5
Cross it. D-d-duh. Better to be safe then submitted.
1/19/2005 6:00pm, #6
If the guy's shoulder is pressing into his own neck, he'll tap faster.
Plus, it's not hard to do, and it's also not something that will make your position weaker as you attempt it. Have your feet locked, raise your hips and pull the arm across. It also means you can go for an armbar more easily if the guy starts to posture up to escape your triangle.
1/19/2005 6:07pm, #7
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
- new jersey
i'm only a one year whitebelt but i think that having it crossed makes it a little bit tighter.
1/19/2005 9:44pm, #8
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
I agree with Bravo and Harris in that crossing the arm is not critically important, but let me explain.
Obviously, if I have a choice, I'll prefer to have my opponents arm crossed in every triangle that I apply. The problem I see often is people who worry too much about the arm while fighting for a triangle, and end up losing it because they dont control their opponents posture. You've only got two hands, and as soon as I set the triangle (jump the hips into the position) I always immediately go to pull the head down so as to be able to lock the choke. After that is when I'll mess around with the arm, but I'd say most of the triangles I get, I dont touch the arm.
1/19/2005 9:54pm, #9
If you set it up right you can get the crossed leg so tight that the arm and even the pull on the head are not needed.
Realistically I'll never get it that tight at my level so I'll be crossing the arm, pulling the head and squeezing my legs with my arms. GOJITSU!
1/20/2005 12:02am, #10
When the arm is crossed pulling the head down isn't needed.Which has advantages.
In MMA it's hard to pull the head down.Alot the guy will punch you with his stuck outside the triangle.You gotta keep pulling the head while getting punched at.Which can be tricky.
Also without getting the arm across it means his elbow can block your hip from getting out properly, which usually means you arent able to get into an "L* shape when you two are looked at from above.
If you can't get into an L shape you cant grab under his leg well enough to keep him from slamming you, or just lifting you and shaking you off.
So yeah, arm across is better.But not needed all the time.
One danger is that is some schools it's considered nasty to pull the head down hard in sparring which often leads to a jawlock or face crush.
So guys can assume they are cool without the arm across.
Then in competition they get their head pulled down and they tap while the arm isn't across.
I myself can't recall tapping if my arm isn't across.Cause even when they pull your head down you can push their hands off by explovely driving your palm into their elbows.