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  1. Kirioroshi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 7:05pm


     Style: Kendo-Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    "The screen helpfully informs him that he is currently ranked number 863 out of 890 people who have ever participated in a sword fight in The Black Sun.
    Number One, the name and the photograph on the top of the list, belongs
    to Hiroaki Protagonist. "

    ....Huh?!
  2. MEGA JESUS-SAMA is offline
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    **** you math class

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 7:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, Ballet, Archery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirioroshi
    And that is just fine, cause your not going to know me intimatly.
    Was I just coming on to you?
  3. Kirioroshi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 7:17pm


     Style: Kendo-Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gadz, I hope not. But a little earthy banter never hurt.
  4. wakinonioi is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 8:14pm


     Style: Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MEGA JESUS-SAN
    Was I just coming on to you?

    Ah! That's why you talk like a girl!
    Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your signatures.
  5. j416to is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 10:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirioroshi
    .... In my mind, your not a real swordsman untill you have once faced another person who holds both a live blade and the intent to kill you in his heart and you have lived to tell the story.....
    This is a fairly romantic view of swordsmanship. You're describing a veteran sword fighter, an experienced killer, not necessarily someone knowledgable in swordsmanship.

    Is soldier is not a soldier until they actually kill someone?

    Can you not become an expert marksman, in either target or tactical shooting, without having to become a professional hitman?

    How many law enforcement officers in the last century or so, have actually killed someone in a one-on-one gun duel?

    Is the local 13 year old gangbanger an experienced marksman, simply because he killed someone in his last car jacking?

    People can be martial arts, knowledgeable in hand-to-hand combat or swordsmanship, without having to have risked their life and taken another.
  6. Kirioroshi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 12:57am


     Style: Kendo-Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by j416to
    This is a fairly romantic view of swordsmanship. You're describing a veteran sword fighter, an experienced killer, not necessarily someone knowledgable in swordsmanship.

    Is soldier is not a soldier until they actually kill someone?

    Can you not become an expert marksman, in either target or tactical shooting, without having to become a professional hitman?

    How many law enforcement officers in the last century or so, have actually killed someone in a one-on-one gun duel?

    Is the local 13 year old gangbanger an experienced marksman, simply because he killed someone in his last car jacking?

    People can be martial arts, knowledgeable in hand-to-hand combat or swordsmanship, without having to have risked their life and taken another.

    Well, For one, you do not read very well. I never said a swordsman had to kill someone to be a swordsman...read it again. What is the true essence of a swordsman, is it the sword of no sword? If so what then? Face an opponent and survive the match w/o killing?

    My supposition is that this is one of the last parts and only a piece of the whole.

    Yes, you can become an expert marksman, in either target or tactical shooting, without having to become a professional hitman, but this does not make you a soldier. These skills are a part of the whole.

    Your extrapolating a bit farr. I was not talking about Police officers and again, I never said a swordsman had to kill anyone.
    And your 13 year old question is just stupid.

    Yes. People can be accomplished martial artists, knowledgeable in hand-to-hand combat or swordsmanship, without having to have risked their life and taken another. That's why we call them Martial "Artists" ,

    My post is to discuss the fact that "swordsmanship" is more than one dimensional. Many People practice one type of sword and consider that style the "Truth" to swordsmanship. They badmouth other sword martial arts without trying to understand what is to be gained by that "style" or art.

    Romantic? Really? Yea, your probably right, because today there is no use for swordsmen. Its a thing of the past, A romantic vision of the past brought to us to practice as an art form. There are no need for "Sword warriors these days. We practice because we want a method of self improvement that is somewhat original to ourselves and not just another lemming following others to Aerobics or Tae bo. Today, I am an artist, and I choose an artform that is martial. Im not deluded enough to call myself a warrior.
    If people want to call themselves swordsmen in this day and age, ok fine, but I hope they have an appreciation for what skills a true swordsman, who lived during the time that being a swordsman meant you could get called out for the slightest provocation, had to master to stay alive in society or in battle.
    Last edited by Kirioroshi; 1/22/2005 1:07am at .
  7. j416to is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 1:28am

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     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My comments were sarcastic exaggerations, obviously.

    But again, your quote was the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirioroshi
    .... In my mind, your not a real swordsman untill you have once faced another person who holds both a live blade and the intent to kill you in his heart and you have lived to tell the story.....
    So how are were you implying that a real swordsman would be able to face another person with a live blade and the intent to kill them, and live to tell the story? By talking their way out of the conflict. By changing the intent in the heart of their attacker? By disarming them, rendering them unconscious, and then fleeing until the intent to kill has past?

    If someone really has the "intent to kill you in his heart", can you really walk away from them, without killing them first? Or were they just really, really mad at you?

    And with regards to your definition of swordsmanship and a swordsman, a marksman doesn't have to be a warrior, a warrior doesn't have to be a killer, and a swordsman doesn't have to be a sword fighter.

    You can study kendo and consider yourself a swordsman, you can study iaido and consider yourself a swordsman, you just can't call yourself a sword fighter.
  8. Kirioroshi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 2:11am


     Style: Kendo-Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think your arguing a small part and missing the whole idea.
    Why dont you tell me what you think a swordsman is? Someone who practices Kendo? someone who practices Iaido? You say people can Consider themselves this, but when and with what abilities would you agree that they are a Swordsman?

    I do appreciate the discussion, however I believe that the title of "Swordsman " means more than just practicing a martial art. Maybe being in a swordfight seems to be a very small part of it to you, but if this is so, then why are the the majority of the most remembered swordsmen the ones that have survived such confrontations, and usually more than one.
    Your point is well taken that you do not need to kill someone to be a swordsman, again I did not say that, and I worded my statement carefully to avoid that. If your instructor has not discussed the more essoteric ideas of Iai, it is probably because you are not open to the idea just yet. Have you ever heard the idea that a true swordsman does not have to draw his sword?

    The main reason for these ideas to be stated was to get people who keep saying that Kenjutsu or Iaijutsu or kendo are better than than one another, to realize there is more to swordsmanship than one art. The whole idea is that each one may contain a part of the whole. And then if you look at the whole and do not include the ability and experience of facing a live opponent in a life or death situation, there is a hole in the whole.

    Looking at it from your point of view, I can see where you have an issue with the idea that someone is not a swordsman without this part. Time for bed, more tomorrow. You must be in Vancouver or on the west coast. That isn't you is it KT?
    Last edited by Kirioroshi; 1/22/2005 2:26am at .
  9. Sleepy Jack is offline
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    is still hungry.

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 11:18am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by j416to
    ...Is soldier is not a soldier until they actually kill someone?
    You're not even a man until you've killed someone in battle. Take it from someone who has watched many Clint Eastwood films.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirioroshi
    Iaido teaches perfection of form and concentration in the face of a perceived opponent, proper sword handeling, how to turn a sword during use..kiriage to kesagiri, or tsubamagaeshi (sp?) concentration and balance among many other things...

    Batto, or cutting, teaches just that, how to cut a stationary or moving target, proper handeling of the blade, footwork, proper hasuji, and a lot of proper blade handeling....cant make the same mistakes you can in Iaido without feeling a bit-O- pain at the least, (Assuming use of an Iaito in Iai. as many people use shinken.)
    For what it's worth, the Wikipedia definition of Iaido:"Iaido (居合道 iaidō), also sometimes called iaijutsu (居合術 iaijutsu) or battojutsu (抜刀術 battōjutsu) is the art of drawing the katana, cutting down the opponent, flipping blood from the blade, and then re-sheathing the katana in one fluid movement."

    I'm not completely familiar with Batto, but I do have a few books on Iaido.
    From what I've read, Iaido heavily emphasizes cutting moving and stationary targets. There are old MSS that show the different areas of the human body that can be cleanly cut, along with many exercises-- most of which are cutting. I am just learning this from a book, but most of the content is historical and not didactic. Perhaps the school of Iaido you are learning from is reluctant to teach the cutting of an actual person. Maybe I'm just completely wrong.
    Last edited by Sleepy Jack; 1/22/2005 11:41am at .
  10. Nil is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 1:03pm


     Style: Ninja Secrets

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kirioroshi is wrong. More specifically, Kirioroshi is wrong because kendo is a combat sport, and iaido is a combat art. Neither are martial arts, because neither was designed for battlefield use in any time or place. They are simply games based on the concept of fighting, the sword equivalents of taekwondo, kickboxing, wushu, and wrestling.
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