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  1. IzzyDaHedgehog is offline

    Didn't so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2005 12:39am


     Style: Ex-TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not sure about applying it, but I know it feels a lot tighter when the guy crosses my arm.
    sudo make me a sandwich!
  2. deus ex machina is offline
    deus ex machina's Avatar

    ***ned

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2005 3:41am

    supporting member
     Style: i

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm.
  3. Bizzaro Root is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2005 9:43pm


     Style: Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the first 3 triangles i got on people they didnt tap and i started to notice that some of the triangles that finished quick the guy crosses the arm real hard even pulling it iwth both hads. well i thought this seemed to finish a triangle quicker than pulling down on the head, which i think takes more energy.

    well after i started doing this(crossing the arm) i got the tapp the next two times i tried in spaaring. even made one dude drolled on my gi.

    i personaly feel the triangle is the most satisfying sub.
    Last edited by Bizzaro Root; 1/20/2005 9:45pm at .
    Eduardo "Why'd you stop."

    Me "I was kicked in the head by the guys sparring next to me."

    Eduardo "Ino what happened but i didnt say you could stop."

    Me "Um.. I guess I keep going."

    Eduardo "You dont stop until i say stop, you dont get tired until i say your tired, keep going."


    Originally posted by Ralek
    My cousin gave me some tapes of him doing tkd. I learned from those tapes. When I beat up an Akido instructor, and made him take rest breaks, I used TKD. I learned Bjj from watching ufc and pride and then I copied them and wrestled my cousin for practice. I choked him out and he tapped.
  4. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Canada
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 8:27am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I prefer across the body, I find that, at times, with bigger/stronger opponents, if they try to power out or stack, I can flip them on the side easier with the arm across and then the arm is there is I need to change to an arm bar or whatever.
  5. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 8:28am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Though if you if you have the arm on the side and not crossed, you can flip them to the side of the non-controled arm and go for a "reverse arm bar" ...
  6. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2005 8:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm."

    But whats to stop him from using the arm on your hip pushing it under him so you can't get perpendicular?
    As a last resort I will reach my trapped arm under him and grab my own opposite leg and kick it back.this prevents him from getting perpendicular.However it takes my own arm out of play allowing him to pull my head down.
  7. deus ex machina is offline
    deus ex machina's Avatar

    ***ned

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 3:18am

    supporting member
     Style: i

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Strong Machine
    "If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm."

    But whats to stop him from using the arm on your hip pushing it under him so you can't get perpendicular?
    As a last resort I will reach my trapped arm under him and grab my own opposite leg and kick it back.this prevents him from getting perpendicular.However it takes my own arm out of play allowing him to pull my head down.
    What if what if what if? Do you disagree that if you DO get perpendicular, you don't have to have the arm to get the tap?
  8. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/22/2005 11:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sometimes.But certain moves for certain people.
    Getting perpendicular without getting the arm across is in itself tricky if the guy is shouldery.
    Do *I* have to get his arm across if I'm perpendicular ?
    Only if he is good.
  9. Red Elvis is offline
    Red Elvis's Avatar

    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2005 4:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll throw in my two cents here. The reason the triangle is taught with pulling the arm across by people like Rigan etc. is that it is the technically correct way to do the technique. Do we all do our techniques 100% correct every time? No, and many times they still work. I'm guiltier of that than most but the principle behind BJJ is that you can use technique and leverage against an opponent of any size or strength. (We all know this isn't necessarily true). How many techniques have you learned where the instructor says something to the effect of, ďthis is how the technique is done but if you donít get this part it will still work against most peopleĒ? I hear that all the time and itís true that it still works but does it work against the skilled opponent or the big strong athletic opponent? Maybe, but it may also take a hell of a lot longer to pull off and can use up energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by deus ex machina
    What if what if what if? Do you disagree that if you DO get perpendicular, you don't have to have the arm to get the tap?
    Now, as for the above statementÖ I will disagree with the fact that all you have to do is get perpendicular without the arm to get the triangle. That may work for you and others on this board but it doesn't always work for me. Typically where it doesnít work is when my opponent is more skilled than I or outweighs me by 50-100+ lbs. If I donít get the arm across properly with a technically proficient opponent or a strong and athletic opponent then it ainít doing **** but wasting my leg strength. I was unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a triangle two times this week back to back against the same opponent. Both times I was able to defend the choke effectively while working to escape the position because at first my arm was not across my neck. Was it choking me? Yes, but not enough for me to tap or loose consciousness. However, as soon as he managed to get my arm across my neck I tapped within seconds. The difference in the choke was drastic with the arm. (Note: He was pulling my head down too without the arm and it still wasnít working.)

    The point Iím making is that you can use a lot of techniques without getting all the details correct or not even knowing all the fine details. This really helps when youíre strong, your opponent is new and panics or you have characteristics that help such as long legs or bony wrists etc. But itís not going to work for everybody. Iíve had the good fortune to train with numerous instructors and itís very interesting how different people can take the same technique and show you something you never noticed before that suddenly makes it click or work 10 times better than it previously did. If you donít need the arm when you do a triangle thatís fine. But better for these guys to teach it in their books and videos that way for those of us who do need it then to leave it out.

    Just out of curiosity dues ex machina, how often do you grapple guys who outweigh you by over 100 lbs. and who are very skilled? (purples, browns and blacksÖ and Iím not talking fat guys either but 100 lbs. of muscle) Next question, can you tap these guys in the triangle without using the arm?
    Last edited by Red Elvis; 1/23/2005 7:39pm at .
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  10. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2005 7:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess while were mentioning how you do not need to get his arm across I may as well throw out that you can get the tap even with not only getting the arm across, and not only not getting your head out, but by getting it out to the wrong side.I've done it many times.
    You can get the tap by not figure fouring but by crossing your ankles instead.
    You can also get the tap if you dont have one of his arms through but rather you have NONE of his arms through, or even BOTH of his arms through.
    There are real techniques there and they really work.But do they work vs equally skilled and athletic competition? Rarely.Which is my point.
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