Crossing the arm in triangle chokes

**IzzyDaHedgehog** · Posted On: 1/19/2005 11:39pm

I'm not sure about applying it, but I know it feels a lot tighter when the guy crosses my arm.

**deus ex machina** · Posted On: 1/20/2005 2:41am

If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm.

**Bizzaro Root** · Posted On: 1/20/2005 8:43pm

the first 3 triangles i got on people they didnt tap and i started to notice that some of the triangles that finished quick the guy crosses the arm real hard even pulling it iwth both hads. well i thought this seemed to finish a triangle quicker than pulling down on the head, which i think takes more energy.

well after i started doing this(crossing the arm) i got the tapp the next two times i tried in spaaring. even made one dude drolled on my gi.

i personaly feel the triangle is the most satisfying sub.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 1/21/2005 7:27am

I prefer across the body, I find that, at times, with bigger/stronger opponents, if they try to power out or stack, I can flip them on the side easier with the arm across and then the arm is there is I need to change to an arm bar or whatever.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 1/21/2005 7:28am

Though if you if you have the arm on the side and not crossed, you can flip them to the side of the non-controled arm and go for a "reverse arm bar" ...

**Strong Machine** · Posted On: 1/21/2005 7:56pm

"If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm."

But whats to stop him from using the arm on your hip pushing it under him so you can't get perpendicular?
As a last resort I will reach my trapped arm under him and grab my own opposite leg and kick it back.this prevents him from getting perpendicular.However it takes my own arm out of play allowing him to pull my head down.

**deus ex machina** · Posted On: 1/22/2005 2:18am

Originally Posted by Strong Machine

"If you're using proper mechanics aka getting your body perpendicular, then you shouldn't have to cross the arm."

But whats to stop him from using the arm on your hip pushing it under him so you can't get perpendicular?
As a last resort I will reach my trapped arm under him and grab my own opposite leg and kick it back.this prevents him from getting perpendicular.However it takes my own arm out of play allowing him to pull my head down.

What if what if what if? Do you disagree that if you DO get perpendicular, you don't have to have the arm to get the tap?

**Strong Machine** · Posted On: 1/22/2005 10:24pm

Sometimes.But certain moves for certain people.
Getting perpendicular without getting the arm across is in itself tricky if the guy is shouldery.
Do *I* have to get his arm across if I'm perpendicular ?
Only if he is good.

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 1/23/2005 3:50pm

I'll throw in my two cents here. The reason the triangle is taught with pulling the arm across by people like Rigan etc. is that it is the technically correct way to do the technique. Do we all do our techniques 100% correct every time? No, and many times they still work. I'm guiltier of that than most but the principle behind BJJ is that you can use technique and leverage against an opponent of any size or strength. (We all know this isn't necessarily true). How many techniques have you learned where the instructor says something to the effect of, “this is how the technique is done but if you don’t get this part it will still work against most people”? I hear that all the time and it’s true that it still works but does it work against the skilled opponent or the big strong athletic opponent? Maybe, but it may also take a hell of a lot longer to pull off and can use up energy.

Originally Posted by deus ex machina

What if what if what if? Do you disagree that if you DO get perpendicular, you don't have to have the arm to get the tap?

Now, as for the above statement… I will disagree with the fact that all you have to do is get perpendicular without the arm to get the triangle. That may work for you and others on this board but it doesn't always work for me. Typically where it doesn’t work is when my opponent is more skilled than I or outweighs me by 50-100+ lbs. If I don’t get the arm across properly with a technically proficient opponent or a strong and athletic opponent then it ain’t doing **** but wasting my leg strength. I was unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of a triangle two times this week back to back against the same opponent. Both times I was able to defend the choke effectively while working to escape the position because at first my arm was not across my neck. Was it choking me? Yes, but not enough for me to tap or loose consciousness. However, as soon as he managed to get my arm across my neck I tapped within seconds. The difference in the choke was drastic with the arm. (Note: He was pulling my head down too without the arm and it still wasn’t working.)

The point I’m making is that you can use a lot of techniques without getting all the details correct or not even knowing all the fine details. This really helps when you’re strong, your opponent is new and panics or you have characteristics that help such as long legs or bony wrists etc. But it’s not going to work for everybody. I’ve had the good fortune to train with numerous instructors and it’s very interesting how different people can take the same technique and show you something you never noticed before that suddenly makes it click or work 10 times better than it previously did. If you don’t need the arm when you do a triangle that’s fine. But better for these guys to teach it in their books and videos that way for those of us who do need it then to leave it out.

Just out of curiosity dues ex machina, how often do you grapple guys who outweigh you by over 100 lbs. and who are very skilled? (purples, browns and blacks… and I’m not talking fat guys either but 100 lbs. of muscle) Next question, can you tap these guys in the triangle without using the arm?

**Strong Machine** · Posted On: 1/23/2005 6:36pm

I guess while were mentioning how you do not need to get his arm across I may as well throw out that you can get the tap even with not only getting the arm across, and not only not getting your head out, but by getting it out to the wrong side.I've done it many times.
You can get the tap by not figure fouring but by crossing your ankles instead.
You can also get the tap if you dont have one of his arms through but rather you have NONE of his arms through, or even BOTH of his arms through.
There are real techniques there and they really work.But do they work vs equally skilled and athletic competition? Rarely.Which is my point.