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  1. Beneath Contempt is offline

    Cowardly Henchman

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 9:53am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is something inherently "different" about Judo in the way that it is taught - possibly relating to the roots as Kano's social project. But Judo in Europe and the USA is almost always taught in non-specialised dojos by non-professional coaches. By that, I mean that they have other jobs and their living is not dependant upon teaching students.

    Whilst this is fairly charitable and guarantees a certain continuation of Judo, it does also foster a certain "hobby" mentality on a lot of practitioners. A lot of people pay a lot of money to train in BJJ - they expect results for their money and "self-fulfil" this by applying themselves proportionately to their investment.

    You are quite unlikely to get the same response from judoka - and judo is a uniformly unattractive sport. Not only is it hard work, dirty and painful - but there is little glamour in it. The tough guys are often old men with beards - not tanned beach bums.

    The fact is judo has come under attack from every angle and I would say that there is danger of serious decline or extinction in the US, where Wrestling takes the pick of the High school/collegiate grapplers and BJJ has taken off in a big way.

    I think the key is for judoka to move with the times in terms of the image and marketing of the sport - but not to be tempted to tinker with the basis of judo. By this - don't try and compete on the groundfighting stakes. Judoka have to be intellectually secure in being second best to jiu-jitsu people - and understand that Judo IS a throwing art primarily. BJJ never tries to pretend that it can compete with Judo in terms of takedowns - so the reverse should be true. Nogueira/Fedor is a classic example of this.
  2. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 9:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beneath Contempt
    There is something inherently "different" about Judo in the way that it is taught - possibly relating to the roots as Kano's social project. But Judo in Europe and the USA is almost always taught in non-specialised dojos by non-professional coaches. By that, I mean that they have other jobs and their living is not dependant upon teaching students.

    Whilst this is fairly charitable and guarantees a certain continuation of Judo, it does also foster a certain "hobby" mentality on a lot of practitioners. A lot of people pay a lot of money to train in BJJ - they expect results for their money and "self-fulfil" this by applying themselves proportionately to their investment.

    You are quite unlikely to get the same response from judoka - and judo is a uniformly unattractive sport. Not only is it hard work, dirty and painful - but there is little glamour in it. The tough guys are often old men with beards - not tanned beach bums.

    The fact is judo has come under attack from every angle and I would say that there is danger of serious decline or extinction in the US, where Wrestling takes the pick of the High school/collegiate grapplers and BJJ has taken off in a big way.

    I think the key is for judoka to move with the times in terms of the image and marketing of the sport - but not to be tempted to tinker with the basis of judo. By this - don't try and compete on the groundfighting stakes. Judoka have to be intellectually secure in being second best to jiu-jitsu people - and understand that Judo IS a throwing art primarily. BJJ never tries to pretend that it can compete with Judo in terms of takedowns - so the reverse should be true. Nogueira/Fedor is a classic example of this.
    Maybe judo need to get back to its roots, 50% throws and 50% grappling and 50% striking.
    :spanky:
  3. Beneath Contempt is offline

    Cowardly Henchman

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 10:03am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That adds up to 130%
  4. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 10:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing about judoka, we can do our math !!
  5. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 10:59am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No gi randori and ne waza would be a great start, I think. I really don´t know how judo and BJJ and wrestling go on in the USA, but in Brazil judo is alive and well - BJJ players do respect it a lot.

    My own MT coach almost hit me in the head when I told him I left judo and took up wing chun.

    At least here, judo is THE stand up grappling art. Of course, the fact that wrestling is not at all common plays a large part in that.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  6. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 11:11am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've ALWAYS wanted to do Judo, if not to one-up my dad (who competed and won in Judo "back in the day"), then to learn some good takedowns and balance breaking skills.

    It's cheap, requires next to no equipment or setup.. hell if the university offers it this year I'm joining!
  7. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 11:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can see how, in BRASIL, judo would be looked at in a different way, they train for JJ competitons as well as judo ones, so...
  8. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 11:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    I can see how, in BRASIL, judo would be looked at in a different way, they train for JJ competitons as well as judo ones, so...
    I am not sure judokas train for JJ competitions here, but they are certainly influenced by them, so they probably take a BJJ player´s tactics into account when they train.

    I do not hang around with the BJJ crowd (they go to the same gym on other weekdays), but I did hear the gym´s BJJ instructor saying that it´s bloody hard to throw a judoka to the ground, other than by striking him - you either strike him untill he falls, or you wait for him to throw you and bring him along.

    I do know that my rusty judo skills work very well against takedowns (the infamous baiana).
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  9. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 11:34am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo over the decades is cyclic. Ups and downs. Popularity and then relative obscurity.

    I don't attribute Judos decline to any one factor. It is a combination of things. But lets keep this in perspective, Judo is still more popular worldwide than BJJ by like 100x.

    Tournament Judo is quite frustrating and the sportive aspects have been hurting Judo in a number of ways. But in an equal number of ways it has propagated the sport and made it flourish. The RULES of Judo seem to be changing though. With the re-invention so to speak of groundwork and MMA, Judo is resisting inevitable change. I saw first hand the scorn of referees who thought a BJJ type had infiltrated a tournament. The result was even LESS allowed groundwork than other competitors in some sort of punishment to 'show' them what 'real' Judo was all about. On the other side of the coin they didn't realize that the BJJ guy was also showing the referees what 'real' Judo was like.

    The premise of 'winning' matches with an Ippon seems out of place today. Granted if you throw someone with an Ippon on concrete its likely they aren't getting up, but to emphasize this so overwhelmingly while scorning groundwork really hurt Judo in the last few decades. We all know Judo groundwork USED to be good. But it fell into relative obscurity.

    With the popularity of grappling, submission grappling, BJJ, etc I think the only logical move for Judo is to modify the rules somewhat and become more flexible. Less restrictive. Less anal. Seriously - no gripping the belt for more than 5 seconds. No gripping the Gi on the same side for more than 5 seconds. etc. All in the name of making a more aggressive, less defensive standing game.

    But is this the answer, just allow more groundwork? No. That won't solve the problems. The factions, the rules, the politics, everything. Maybe its time for Judo to fall into relative obscurity again so it can refocus and lose all the excess baggage.
  10. GregW is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 11:44am


     Style: Taijiquan - Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tough question, and I wish I had a good answer. I'd say that Sport Judo will be more popular at least in the near future, but with a small and increasing number of traditionalist schools. Sort of a schism...
    What would make Judo more popular in the U.S? Like it or not, an Olympic Gold Medal.
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