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  1. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 4:17am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like you probably need to get more control on your base leg. You're definately using too much strength and you're almost definately tensing up as well. Try to control it by maintaining balance, strengthening the muscles and all. An axe kick generally comes straight out; not from outside-in as a crescent kick.

    Taikwido: perhaps a difference in terminology, perhaps a difference in technique. But a axe kick like I do it, like a high front push kick, but going forward AND down. The kick movement is NOT: Up-Down. Any movement on the part of the opponent will immediately put him out of range. If you want to hit a moving opponent, you HAVE to add forward momentum as well as the downwards, thus throwing it out like a front kick.
  2. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 6:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JKing
    I'm sure by now everyone knows what an axe kick is and how its supposed to be used. I'm sure we all know it has been used in fighting. My question is this however - is it worth spending some time training and sparring with especially? I dont ever use it in sparring, and I never practice it (mostly because its kinda hard to do against a hanging or free standing bag). Do you think it would be a valuable stand up technique?

    Also, any one got any good drills for axe kicks (besides someone holding a pad and you kicking it)
    You can probably use iit as a finishing technique although as for training its really not too difficult to learn it. Get a partner with a focus mitt and you can pretty much get a good workout with it. :occasion1
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  3. taikwido is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2005 5:32pm


     Style: TKD/Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I think we have a difference in philosiphy ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    Its fairly easy to do an axe kick similar to a push kick. Launch it out, push kick above them a bit and swing it down. I don't think you have an basic understanding of the kick and it's applications taikwido (damn, im so tempted to change that retarded ass name). Every post you have at least one paragraph indicating that you have NO clue.
    ... and I'm really not surprised since I'm a pretty unsual person. I do not "conform" to most of the things I've been "taught". I tinker and tweak and do what I've systematically found to be the quickest and most powerful. AXE kick is not in that genre.

    I would show you a different way of teaching AND executing pretty much EVERY kick in the TKD genre. I think the TKD "common knowledge" is poor and sloppy. Yes, I am criticizing the art that I was "taught". And I have largely rejected it's body of thought after I found it lacking. But the journey was useful.

    While I had an Chung Do Kwan instructor (9th dan (Kukkidown Certified)) who was an overall poor teacher, I think that actually helped those martially inclined to tweak and find different ways of doing things. The guys who stayed had the "knack" for self examination and determining on their own how to make something work. Some of the guys I worked with were often there for 20 years and other came as black-belts from other disciplines. Some left for other arts and came back to "practice" with the old group.

    What I will tell you is that the WTF stuff I was taught by a 7th Dan Olympic TKD judge (and 5th Dan Judo black belt) didn't work AT ALL against the guys at the Chung Do Kwan place.

    I've been around. And what you describe as paragraphs indicating that I "don't know what I'm talking about" probably comes from experiences that I have had but you have not.

    Overall, maybe your right. Perhaps mine and my ilk have never spent enough time investing in a poor technique with limited application that would get you massacred in a real self defense situation. My Chung Do Kwan teacher didn't teach axe kick (the WTF guy DID), and that was likely derived from the "defense" wing of TKD's overall opinion of the technique.

    The fact that you cannot imagine an axe kick being done from a spin tells me that it's YOU who haven't been around enough. It also tells me that you cannot imagine something thats pretty straight forward. Since executing an axe from a spin is little different that executing a crescent from a spin (chambered or unchambered).

    I spent a little time on the mat last night before Aikido class working an Axe from a spin class. I haven't sparred anyone in a couple of years (since I stopped TEACHING tkd). Even with my current limited flexibility, it wasn't difficult.

    If you don't understand how to chamber your hips properly and generate power through tortion, thats your limitation. And the fact that you cannot see the mechanics of such a technique, show me that you don't understand the mechanics of what you're doing.

    Finally, if you push a kick out and downwads from a high front chamber, you'll miss your head target unless you are significantly taller than the other guy. That would still be an axe kick ... and I'm not surprised you'd find this valuable.

    If it goes and and up with the heel, it's a front piercing kick (or push kick). That is, unless you're experienced in chopping wood by thrusting the blunt top forward into a stump. Axe movements SWING!!!!
  4. JKing is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2005 5:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kajukenbo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ha ha, you do aikido, and you used to teach TKD.

    So you're saying you can't axe kick from a high front chamber? I can do it right here in front of my computer, past my head level, easily. I dont see why you can't. In fact, next week in class I'll try it in sparring. Heck, I'll try it at the washington throwdown on the 5th.

    As for limited application, thats up to the person using it isn't? Kyokushin guys seem to have fun bloodying each other up with it. Heck, now that I think about it check out the "kyokushin vs Drunken Kung Fu" vid in which the guy axe kicks the other guy for a nice bloody nose.

    I started the thread asking if it is a good idea to train this technique a bit because I dont use it. To outright just say "no, this is the worst technique ever and no one should use it" just annoys me - especially seeing as it HAS been used several times in mma events and full contact events. My question was one of probability and drills.

    By the way, I would call an axe kick any downward motion of the leg in which the striking area being the heel. How you get the kick UP doesn't matter, its the downward motion that is the kick.
  5. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2005 10:41pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreeing with Osiris' A-E list there.

    And for emphasis.

    Spinning Axe Kicks are RETARDED BECAUSE:

    An axe kick does not benefit from body torque. Roundhouse kicks, spinning heels and crescent kicks, yes, because they require the waist to pivot and rotate, thus the momentum from spinning SIDEWAYS helps the kick.

    An Axe Kick comes out straight forward. If you SPIN, what you're really doing is SPINNING FORWARD, and then LAUNCHING the kick when you're close enough.

    I see 2 possibilities.

    1. You still have sideways momentum when you try to launch the axe kick. As a result not only do you have to launch the kick, but you'll also have to combat the spin, possibly throwing you off balance. If you don't combat the spin, your axe kick lands diagonally, becoming a crescent kick that impacts downwards, like an axe kick. Either way, it's not as powerful as it could be.

    2. You spin forward. Stop. And then launch the axe kick forward. In which case doing the spin was unnecessary; it added nothing to the kick except gain you distance. If you're doing this, you can do the axe kick standing still or just moving forward. The spin is irrelevant.


    In any case, you say you like to adapt techniques, and do the whole "discard what is useless" thing. Sure, I do that too. In fact, that's how I arrived at the conclusion that doing an axe kick that slowly swings up and swings back down again is nearly pointless unless you have forward momentum as well. So if that's what you're saying, cool.

    But that's not what you're saying. You're saying doing a front push to the head that chambers high, powers forward and then pushes down is not an axe kick. And you're clearly mistaken. Once again, try it for yourself. This method requires a lot less flexibility, and the high chamber means that extending the leg and pushing forward and down lets you hit taller opponents. There is no need for you to be taller. I have PERSONALLY seen a fighter land this exact kick on a more experienced fighter who had at least half a head on him.

    Methinks your "I don't do it because it's useless" and "I don't execute textbook TKD moves" reasoning is just an excuse to cover up the fact that you have no clue in hell about landing those moves on an actual opponent, and thus, rather than REALLY learning how to do the kick, you gave it up as useless. Good job buddy. My way of doing the axe kick isn't found in any TKD manuals either. I learnt it from people who had actually landed the kick on OTHER people. So no, I guess I'm just like you huh, my techniques aren't picture perfect. But no, I have the feeling that in your case, it's just plain sloppiness and inexperience in actually kicking things that makes those kicks "useless" or "not textbook tkd". I'd probably accept that kind of reasoning from Osiris or someone else more experienced than I; I know Osiris is a legit fighter because he's actually stepping up to fight Darkson. You, on the other hand, have not shown that you know jack ****, in which case your reasoning is unacceptable.

    Hint: WTF fighters aren't exactly known for textbook technique either. That's why people have a problem with WTF. We chop, change and improvise so many things for the sake of speed and a higher % chance of connecting that we've become all about the SPORT, just like Olympic JUDO, which people are criticising these days because they're eschewing certain moves and groundwork in order to develop more high % ippon techniques. Sport fighters rely mainly on high % moves and effective set ups. Don't talk to me about discarding what is useless and improvising your technique until you've competed in something as a sport. It's a whole new ballpark, so far as I'm concerned, and you're not on the field.
    Last edited by lifetime; 1/15/2005 10:46pm at .
  6. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2005 6:51am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lifetime: I've *dropped* people with a spinning axe kick. Not because it adds power, it's no stronger then a normal axe kick I'd say, but because they're almost always expecting a different kick....but then, I'm 6'4" so even in weight class high kicks are often more practical for me then for others...

    I will concede, it's a somewhat awkward motion...it's more of a feint of a different kick, followed by an axe kick...there was a female national sport TKD competitor, I can't remember her name, that used to do it all the time.

    I don't know if I'd try in a situation where not wanting to get taken down was a factor tho...
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  7. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2005 7:03am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can do one, sure; but I find it's a one-trick shot. Do it once and you can get someone; do it twice and they'll figure you out. Taikwido here was suggesting that a spinning axe is the only practical way to do an axe at all, which is just ridiculous. Personally I prefer not to spin unnecessarily; the spinning axe is one of those moves that doesn't really benefit from spin at all. It's just a fake/trick thing to land a shot; other than that there's no point to it because a regular axe is normally faster and easier to land.
  8. JKing is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2005 7:03am

    supporting member
     Style: Kajukenbo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Situation with take down is the same as any kick higher than waist level. Depends on how fast you fire it out there, and how well you set it up.
  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/18/2005 5:21am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed, lifetime - I'd go so far as to say suprise is the only reason to throw the kick like that, it certainly doesn't add much if any power. . . and yeah, I don't see it "fooling" someone more then once a round, but it's OK if they just start backing up when you look like you might spin, too . . . you can always switch back to something else when they've got you pegged, right? >:)

    It's also a bitch if you replace the second kick in the infamous jumping push-kick/front-kick with an axe kick...that combo is such a TKD trademark, it is SO INGRAINED in people that a second, harder front kick is coming, that any variation usually lands...
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2005 6:11am


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not me apparently. I'm a sucker for offensive push kicks and back kicks. I'm easy for my opponents to figure out because when I fight better fighters than myself my natural instinct tells me to close in, defend and counterattack at close range. Meaning a lot of the time I see someone coming in with a roundhouse, block, and they turn it into a push kick or a back kick.

    It rarely scores, but because I don't evade as much as other fighters (I'm a stand, trade, disengage type fighter) tricks like that tend to work on me.

    Some tricks do, some tricks don't. I'm hard to land a combination on, but throw some kinda tricky push, roundhouse, axe and my "stand and trade" mentality usually gets me either hit or narrowly dodging.

    Moral of the story is that an axe kick has to be set-up or "tricked" in. Unless you've got fantastic speed, it's pretty hard to get by doing it any other way.
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