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  1. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:48pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Taikwido, I think you're confused here.
    Aside from what Osiris addressed, a few more things:

    I have never, in my life, seen an Axe Kick done from a spin. A crescent kick, yes, because ITF guys seem to love the crescent kick for some reason (probably because it's a simple kick to do). But an axe kick powers FORWARD. Doing it while spinning is unfeasible, because you won't get adequate forward momentum, you'll be getting SOME forward momentum and a whole lot of spinning which makes landing a powerful axe kick more difficult.

    The way you described the technique is also flawed: it's not done "twisting" off the ground, and the power is not derived in the upswing, unless you're lugging around your leg like Frankenstein's monster.

    You have obviously had very little WTF experience, because nearly any WTF fighter with any sort of experience knows how to get around an opponent that just counters with push/sidekicks (btw, the push kick is a LOT faster than throwing a side kick as a counter. You'd know that if you actually tried some of your nonsense). If you just sat there and tried to counter every rear leg kick that your opponent did with a side kick, you could get away with it once, but get fucked the second time you tried it because you'd be faked, feinted and off-balanced by any fighter that knows what he's doing.

    And if you think blocking is going to stop a good axe/push kick, how bout this.

    Go to al3xweb (google it)

    Go to his K1 vids section. Scroll down, look for Baukaw, who won the 2004 K1 MAX GP.

    Look for his final fight with Masato.

    Watch Masato keep a GUARD up, and watch Baukaw PUNISH HIM REPEATEDLY with 4 high push kicks in a row.

    WATCH Baukaw stand PERFECTLY STILL AND GROUNDED while CHAMBERING THE LEG HIGH and LAUNCHING the kick out.

    Now. You're probably going to say, rah rah rah, that's not an axe kick, rah rah rah

    No, it's not an axe kick, but modify the target from Masato's chest to Masato's HEAD and you'll get a sense that THAT is how an Axe kick is done in WTF. By CHAMBERING HIGH, and then LAUNCHING the kick STRAIGHT FORWARD (no spinning, no jumping) at the opponent's HEAD, and then using your body weight to push the kick FORWARD AND DOWN.

    There's no need to launch a full ITF axe kick where you slowly bring it high, and then bring it down, while remaining stationary (or in the case of the less flexible, JUMPING OR SPINNING). In WTF, it's ROUNDHOUSE, ROUNDHOUSE, AXE KICK TO THE FACE.
    Last edited by lifetime; 1/13/2005 7:57pm at .
  2. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:52pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Poop-Loops
    Back when I did TKD, all my axe-kicks in sparring ended up being crescent kicks. It was bad. :(

    PL
    You know, unless you were doing point-sparring or something, I don't think the technique you used would have made much of a difference.

    If you were doing WTF contact sparring, you'll find that very few of the fighters have PERFECT technique anyway. They modify and track their target, and if they find that an axe kick isn't going to hit, they'll swing it sideways and turn it into a crescent. Seems reasonable to me.
  3. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 9:08pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    .....owned.

    I was taught to fake and feint. Steven Lopez the American Olympic champ has this defence where he's static for most of the fight, lifts his left knee, blocks kicks and does push kicks at his opponent.

    You get around it by being aggressive, deceptive, and you make sure your opponent is always on the back foot. Granted it's harder to beat than roundhouse kicks, but just about everyone with experience has fought a guy that's done this. I switch a lot, use a lot of lateral movement and short kicks, especially if he's defensive. If you can manage to fake him into throwing the kick, you can capitalise and launch in with a combo, get in close and hammer him with kicks.

    Now a person that just waits for you to attack and then launches a back kick, that's a hell of a lot harder. A push kick isn't as effective because it doesn't have the benefit of a thrusting motion, so it's not as strong unless you've got forward momentum. Besides, he's got to hit you either square in the torso or at the hip to push you back enough. If he glances anywhere else, your forward momentum, plus the fact that he's on the back foot, plus the fact that HE doesn't have the momentum to push forward his kick, will make it easier for you to get within kicking range.

    EDIT: Reluctant to mention, but in WTF sparring a lot of guys get around this with spins to gain distance. Unless you're at the very top levels, a lot of guys don't respond to spins very well, and they won't launch a push kick, they'll just move back or us a knee up defence. If you can get to his flanks, spinning or not, you might be able to flat-foot him. Otherwise you just have to fake him and freak him out, and pray that you're faster than he is.
    Last edited by lifetime; 1/13/2005 9:11pm at .
  4. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 9:12pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now that's evil.

    A girl caught me on the knee with an axe once. Couldn't walk that entire weekend, the bitch.
  5. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 10:22pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lifetime, sorry, I was referring to this quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by lifetime
    I'll agree, however if the kick is set up properly you probably won't even see it coming.
    What combos and set ups work for you? For my own curiosity.
    (Osiris already laughed at me on MSN for sucking anyways. :glasses10 )


    Quote Originally Posted by taikwido
    Point here is your legs power stroke is on the upswing. Power comes from the upswing because you derive power from pushing or twisting off the ground. If you leave the ground, you lose both speed and power. The "down-swing" of an axe kick leaves the ground. There is a moment when you change from the up-swing to the down-swing. THAT is the moment that allows people to react easily to block or dodge this kick.
    What does the bolded part mean?


    Don't you guys just tense the glutes hard to pull down the axe faster? Ugh....
    I 'think' my axe is decent, Osiris what did you think of it?
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  6. lifetime is offline

    Perpetually Punchdrunk

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 10:39pm


     Style: TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PizDoff: The highest % chance of an axe kick connecting is when you do something to push your opponent back, where he gets careless.

    If you manage to intimidate your opponent into moving backwards in a rush, you've got him.
    WTF TKD:
    Personally I launch a flurry of kicks; usually a back foot roundhouse, followed up by a few short roundhouses in quick succession, and when your opponent's attention is fully directed to avoiding the kicks or countering, you lift your leg and BAM you kick his head in. Another setup that tends to work is slamming an opponent hard with a roundhouse OR a front push kick, and kicking him with alternate legs (usually maybe 3 kicks) until he either moves in towards a clinch or out to avoid. If he moves in you bring your guard up and do a push kick, and if he moves out you pursue with another roundhouse kick followed up by an axe kick.

    If you want to watch good setup in MMA you should check out Baukaw's front push kicks. Big roundhouse, opponent tries to counter, and he front pushes them.

    EDIT: Just remembered an example that could help you visualise. Think Crocop whenever he sets up his big left leg. He pummels his opponent and forces em to either retreat or get stuck on the ropes, and then zaps them. Same principle. Force them back, create the opening when they're not paying attention, and hit.
    Last edited by lifetime; 1/13/2005 10:42pm at .
  7. heng fa is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 11:15pm


     Style: shaolin temple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    we have this kick in shaolin.

    there is forward momentum in play with our ax kick, power is on the descent...also there is a flexing of the hip and an arching to extend more force into the whip of the kick. it can be very intimidating, especially when one of those mofos is sizzling with a lot of power and speed, you do not want to accept the delivery from Fed Ax...

    I don't see how it would be possible to side kick one...the shaolin version has a slight resemblance to a stalled crescent kick....there doesn't seem to be enough room in my mind for a side kick to work against it.
  8. taikwido is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 11:18pm


     Style: TKD/Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    A few points ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lifetime
    Taikwido, I think you're confused here.
    Aside from what Osiris addressed, a few more things:

    I have never, in my life, seen an Axe Kick done from a spin. A crescent kick, yes, because ITF guys seem to love the crescent kick for some reason (probably because it's a simple kick to do). But an axe kick powers FORWARD. Doing it while spinning is unfeasible, because you won't get adequate forward momentum, you'll be getting SOME forward momentum and a whole lot of spinning which makes landing a powerful axe kick more difficult.

    The way you described the technique is also flawed: it's not done "twisting" off the ground, and the power is not derived in the upswing, unless you're lugging around your leg like Frankenstein's monster.

    You have obviously had very little WTF experience, because nearly any WTF fighter with any sort of experience knows how to get around an opponent that just counters with push/sidekicks (btw, the push kick is a LOT faster than throwing a side kick as a counter. You'd know that if you actually tried some of your nonsense). If you just sat there and tried to counter every rear leg kick that your opponent did with a side kick, you could get away with it once, but get fucked the second time you tried it because you'd be faked, feinted and off-balanced by any fighter that knows what he's doing.

    And if you think blocking is going to stop a good axe/push kick, how bout this.

    Go to al3xweb (google it)

    Go to his K1 vids section. Scroll down, look for Baukaw, who won the 2004 K1 MAX GP.

    Look for his final fight with Masato.

    Watch Masato keep a GUARD up, and watch Baukaw PUNISH HIM REPEATEDLY with 4 high push kicks in a row.

    WATCH Baukaw stand PERFECTLY STILL AND GROUNDED while CHAMBERING THE LEG HIGH and LAUNCHING the kick out.

    Now. You're probably going to say, rah rah rah, that's not an axe kick, rah rah rah

    No, it's not an axe kick, but modify the target from Masato's chest to Masato's HEAD and you'll get a sense that THAT is how an Axe kick is done in WTF. By CHAMBERING HIGH, and then LAUNCHING the kick STRAIGHT FORWARD (no spinning, no jumping) at the opponent's HEAD, and then using your body weight to push the kick FORWARD AND DOWN.

    There's no need to launch a full ITF axe kick where you slowly bring it high, and then bring it down, while remaining stationary (or in the case of the less flexible, JUMPING OR SPINNING). In WTF, it's ROUNDHOUSE, ROUNDHOUSE, AXE KICK TO THE FACE.
    If your kicking straight out, IT ISN'T AN AXE KICK!!!! It's a push kick. Axe kick is a downward movement. If we have only been disagreeing about terminology, I think thats great ... we can move on.

    I didn't say AXE KICK was done twisting. I said REAL POWER is derived from the ground. So when you do any twisting movement, you need to plant that foot in order to get decent power. Otherwise your doing astronaut kicks. Axe kick is down downward, you cannot use the ground as leverage.

    YES YOU CAN DO AN AXE KICK FROM A SPIN (the axe that I speak about, not a push). And I guarantee you it will have more power that way because you'll be using your HIPS to whip that leg around before you slam it down. I still wouldn't try it against a live opponent though.


    So if we've been arguing about nomenclature ... great you consider a push kick or front piercing kick to be a variety of axe kick. Thats like how some people consider a wheel kick distinct from a spinning hook kick (I consider a wheel a poorly executed spinning hook). Or the way some people do crescent kicks without chambering their legs and whipping out the foot. See, I consider those ... WARMUPS.
  9. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 1:03am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    Piz, your axe kicked sucked. The kick itself was fine, albeit a tad slow.
    Thank you for the feedback! :D


    The set up, targeting, and timing was 100% ineffectual. Now, you say you've landed some so you may be better than what saw, ut what I saw was you tossing your leg and hands up and down with no reaction to the opponents motion nor anticipation of his movements.
    Painfully obvious. :(
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  10. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2005 2:55am

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lifetime
    You know, unless you were doing point-sparring or something, I don't think the technique you used would have made much of a difference.

    If you were doing WTF contact sparring, you'll find that very few of the fighters have PERFECT technique anyway. They modify and track their target, and if they find that an axe kick isn't going to hit, they'll swing it sideways and turn it into a crescent. Seems reasonable to me.
    No, I meant I'd swing my leg up, perfectly, but then it would keep going, and instead of stopping right above my opponent, it would keep going, and I'd have to spin around to avoid getting hit.

    PL
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