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  1. AFS is offline

    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 3:46am

    supporting member
     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it might be about time.
    Get some medals in big boys tournaments !!!
  2. AFS is offline

    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 3:55am

    supporting member
     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having read some of the replys in this thread.
    There seems to be the idea, that in judo you are less likely to be attacked from the back, if you don't get your throw right..
    I disagree with that idea.
    There are many techniques which start exactly from those postions, and the time pressure to finish your groundwork forces people to execute techniques faster and faster.
    Internationally look at guys such as Craig Fallon from the UK , who is terrible fast with those sort of techniques.
    I think you are lucky if you get away with an unsucceful attempt and don't move on from there quickly !
  3. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 4:59am


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AFS
    it might be about time.
    Get some medals in big boys tournaments !!!
    Hey, our competitions were brutal. I remember throwing younger boy with a devestating o-goshi and following up with a headbutt because I lost my balance. He started to cry and never came back. I ran that weakling out of there!! Oh I miss the days when you could win by just being more physically developed than your opponents.
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  4. Otaku Waffle is offline
    Otaku Waffle's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 5:13am


     Style: Kali/Jun Fan/CSW

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PoleFighter
    I'm praying to god that judo is like riding a bike.
    It is. A very rusty, squeaky bike and people will hit you over the head with those training wheels you thought you could do without but a bike.
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
    Yrkoon9's Avatar

    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 11:12am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AFS
    Having read some of the replys in this thread.
    There seems to be the idea, that in judo you are less likely to be attacked from the back, if you don't get your throw right..
    I disagree with that idea.
    There are many techniques which start exactly from those postions, and the time pressure to finish your groundwork forces people to execute techniques faster and faster.
    Internationally look at guys such as Craig Fallon from the UK , who is terrible fast with those sort of techniques.
    I think you are lucky if you get away with an unsucceful attempt and don't move on from there quickly !

    How many millions of times have you seen a Seoi fail and the thrower simply turtle up for a few seconds? The defender knows that trying to break that turtle can be a huge waste of energy so they simply get up and go for the throws again.

    The same thing even with Yoko's and such. If it isn't an Ippon, there is a high likelyhood they will simply get up and go standing again. Its not 'wrong', its just common in Judo. Different rules, different emphasis.

    You can argue the EXCEPTIONS to the rule all you want. But the reality is that Judo simply doesn't emphasize groundwork. It doesn't. It is changing in that direction to be sure. But don't EVEN try to say that they encourage it. Because they don't. They want to see the big throw. They have instituted rule after rule after rule to encourage aggressive standing play.

    My proof? Standing out of triangles, armlocks. The matte call when the guy on the bottom closes his guard. The limited amounts of time referees will give you on the mat (personal interpretations). The limited amount of time they will give you to break a turtle, etc. Those rules protect the Judoka to a certain degree.

    Now, how does this relate? C'mon.... Don't try to deny it. Its a simple fact - just like the fact that BJJ doesnt emphasize throws. Accept it and move on.

    Judo 'frowns' on the bent over defensive posture used in BJJ and wrestling. And the penalties for putting yourself in compromising positions have been minimized by the rules and mores of Judo.

    Nobody is saying DON'T DO THIS OR THAT. We are just saying the consequences are much more dire for high risk throws in BJJ than in Judo. You don't get any points for taking the back in Judo. And when you turn your back for a lot of Judo throws you run the risk of being driven into the ground and having your back taken. The 'standard' Judo defense of turtling doesn't save you. Referees aren't going to stand you back up. You are going to have to defend your back from a shark who smells blood.

    Makkikomi is damn near suicidal. A failed Uchimata will land you in halfguard, whereas a failed Harai might end you in side control. It's a question of risk v reward. You can't win a match with an Ippon, but you can lose a match 4-2 if they took your back after your perfect throw.
  6. Te No Kage! is offline
    Te No Kage!'s Avatar

    Chemist

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, when people give me their back with an ippon seionage or o goshi, I counter with a tani otoshi

    I understand what you're saying, but that's not true in all cases, in my club if you give me your back while standing I'll throw you and if on the ground you can bet that I'm going for the RNC

    And my Judo instructor actually brought up the posture debate last week, he said that it's better to stay upright when grappling because it's more natural to strike from that position, he said that when wrestlers and the like bend over to grapple it helps them to grapple, but in a real world application it can be bad because then you have to posture up to strike and are telegraphing your strikes. I never thought of it that way before he talked about it but it makes sense. When I've seen Olympic Judoka, they tend to lean over but when watching MMA fighters tend to be more upright. I guess it's all about application. Personally I like to be postured up and more loose.
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

    Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
  7. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 5:24pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll be damned, but tonight I went to class, and for some reason we got to switch our old room to one that's twice as big, and our teacher had us doing takedown drills all night. It was great. What surprised me though was that everyone was leaning forward so much. We looked like a pack of bulls locking horns. Not at ALL like judo, so I'm rethinking joining that judo school and use thursdays for weights or cardio instead.
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  8. AFS is offline

    Judo Instructor

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    Brisbane
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 7:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yrkoon9
    - we disagree on that subject. Transition from standing-groundwork are scoring points all the time. In modern judo , if you are not well prepared either to attack against failed throws or defend after you have messed things up, you have gaps in your repertoire. You give points away when you could have scored easily.

    - I agree that the time on the ground in judo is too short. However they usually let things run if there is obvious action. That might just be the action which get's you into trouble.

    But again - We can debate forever and wouldn't get anwhere. I appreciate most of the points you made. I certainly agree that the groundwork following a throw poses a much bigger thread in BJJ than in judo.
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