REAL WING TSUN

[DANINJA]

According to one of Yip Man's son and i have also heard it from Jesse Glover (who was Bruce Lee's first student):

In the summer of 1965 Bruce Lee returned to Hong Kong with his wife and son. He paid a visit to his Master and asked Yip Man to teach him the last part of the WingTsun wooden dummy techniques, which Bruce Lee had not yet learned. He also asked Yip Man for permission to make an 8mm film of Yip Man demonstrating the Siu-Nim-Tau form. He needed this film for his own lessons in America. In return he offered to buy the Grandmaster a new apartment. Bruce Lee made a serious mistake, however. By talking about money too much he injured his Master's feelings! Accordingly Grandmaster Yip Man refused his request: "I cannot agree to do this. You are not my only student, and I have never promised anything of this kind to a student. What would I say to the others if I accepted your offer?"
After this rebuff by Yip Man, Bruce Lee turned to his eldest son for help, who has stated that he answered as follows. "It is true that we have lived in poverty and want since we came to Hong Kong ten years ago. We do not even have a house to live in. Naturally your offer to buy us an apartment would relieve our difficulties. But there are more important things in life than comfort and material possessions, my father has a strong will and his verdict is unshakable. We both know this very well. If he has declined your offer I cannot change his mind."

[Gezere]

Thanks always curious to here someone's opinions of the schools here who know something about the art.

I made a mistake. He wrote me back. He did WC in Tallahassee and 7* Mantis in Clearwater.

[The_Mirth]

Thanks for the update, I haven't made it over to look at the mantis school over there. Their website is ridiculous but that doesn't mean to much I suppose.

[Cullion]

According to one of Yip Man's son and i have also heard it from Jesse Glover (who was Bruce Lee's first student):

In the summer of 1965 Bruce Lee returned to Hong Kong with his wife and son. He paid a visit to his Master and asked Yip Man to teach him the last part of the WingTsun wooden dummy techniques, which Bruce Lee had not yet learned. He also asked Yip Man for permission to make an 8mm film of Yip Man demonstrating the Siu-Nim-Tau form. He needed this film for his own lessons in America. In return he offered to buy the Grandmaster a new apartment. Bruce Lee made a serious mistake, however. By talking about money too much he injured his Master's feelings! Accordingly Grandmaster Yip Man refused his request: "I cannot agree to do this. You are not my only student, and I have never promised anything of this kind to a student. What would I say to the others if I accepted your offer?"
After this rebuff by Yip Man, Bruce Lee turned to his eldest son for help, who has stated that he answered as follows. "It is true that we have lived in poverty and want since we came to Hong Kong ten years ago. We do not even have a house to live in. Naturally your offer to buy us an apartment would relieve our difficulties. But there are more important things in life than comfort and material possessions, my father has a strong will and his verdict is unshakable. We both know this very well. If he has declined your offer I cannot change his mind."

There are several discrepancies in this story.

1) Yip Man did make a film of himself doing forms, including partnered drills with Bruce. You can find them on the web.

2) In 1965, Yip Man had been in Hong Kong for more than 10 years. He arrived in 1949.

3) By 1965, the Yip familly are unlikely to have been living in poverty. Yip Man had a decent sized school, his oldest son Ip Chun was an accountant and also did freelance newspaper reporting on the side, and Ip Ching ran a manufacturing business. They definitely were not homeless.

4) I find it unlikely that Yip Man really did have an 'unshakeable will', especially concerning money. He was an opium addict.

[Ronin]

Here is the thing,
When I did Wing Chun I was aware of its lackings, of its weaknesess.
When I did Kyokushin, I was aware of its weaknesess.
Same thing with judo, BJJ, MT ect, etc.
One of the many reason to cross train is because NO ONE system is without weaknesess.
Why some WC people don't see that is beyond me.

If I see a TKD do a hip throw I KNOW its not TKD, just as I know that, if a Judoka throws a spinninh back kick, its not judo.

So to hear some WC guys say that ground fighting is WC just sounds, well, lets call it silly and leave it at that.

[grond]

Oy vey! Think outside of the box for a second ronin. Who cares what name you give something? If it works, it works. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Are you that concerned about the LINEAGE of a technique some random martial artist is using?

Granted, this might sound weird after I've been defending 'wing chun' in the last two pages. Knee-jerk reaction to all the haters on here.

[I aint punchy!?]

First question to address here is: What is Wing Chun?

A hard question to answer -- Typical Wing Chun is what has spread over the world and is a variant of the stuff that was taught to people by Yip Man. However there are a great many variant styles of Wing Chun that do not come from this lineage. Note that Yip Man's system was a modification of the WC he was taught.

If we take a broader view of various WC systems we can possibly define WC as a style of fighting that involves closing the gap on an opponent by using hand deflections and foot work, and then using short range attacks -- short punches or kicks --, or sweeps or throws in some systems. Centreline theory is important but not the be all and end all of WC as I see it... there are many techniques from WC styles that are aimed at beating other WC fighters... e.g. slipping hands that involve circular punching (like a wide hook that start from the centreline and arcs around to the back of the opponents head).

However WC as we see it today -- the typical WC -- was what Bruce Lee was taught. In a short vid of him doing the Sil Lum Tao he can be seen doing the straight leg pigeon toe stance and no elbow on the centreline... argh... heh.

Anyway Bruce came up with JKD... heavily influenced by WC. Perhaps it can be said that it has a much greater focus on long range fighting (if you base what he wanted in this style from the 'Tao of JKD').

But post-Bruce JKD is a hodge-podge of stuff from many styles -- sometimes it looks like traditional karate, sometimes its drills from WC, sometimes its a bit of Arnis. Its like 'free-style' MA with bonus Bruce Lee marketing. The only club I know that does JKD do no sparring, do all Arnis right hand only, and focus on little bits of WC like lop sau. While some WC clubs I know of focus on WC fighting predominantly. Again it comes down to: how good is the instructor, how hard is the student willing to work, how long will they stick at it.

This reflects more the general standard of MAs and MAers in general. Most MAers will probably do MA for 3-6 months and never get very good... so having Bruce Lee on your marketing team sure helps get these people through the door with the cash. And those new people are more likely going to be scared off by a high intensity club that teaches hard conditioning and focuses on sparring.

[Ronin]

First question to address here is: What is Wing Chun?

A hard question to answer -- Typical Wing Chun is what has spread over the world and is a variant of the stuff that was taught to people by Yip Man. However there are a great many variant styles of Wing Chun that do not come from this lineage. Note that Yip Man's system was a modification of the WC he was taught.

If we take a broader view of various WC systems we can possibly define WC as a style of fighting that involves closing the gap on an opponent by using hand deflections and foot work, and then using short range attacks -- short punches or kicks --, or sweeps or throws in some systems. Centreline theory is important but not the be all and end all of WC as I see it... there are many techniques from WC styles that are aimed at beating other WC fighters... e.g. slipping hands that involve circular punching (like a wide hook that start from the centreline and arcs around to the back of the opponents head).

However WC as we see it today -- the typical WC -- was what Bruce Lee was taught. In a short vid of him doing the Sil Lum Tao he can be seen doing the straight leg pigeon toe stance and no elbow on the centreline... argh... heh.

Anyway Bruce came up with JKD... heavily influenced by WC. Perhaps it can be said that it has a much greater focus on long range fighting (if you base what he wanted in this style from the 'Tao of JKD').

But post-Bruce JKD is a hodge-podge of stuff from many styles -- sometimes it looks like traditional karate, sometimes its drills from WC, sometimes its a bit of Arnis. Its like 'free-style' MA with bonus Bruce Lee marketing. The only club I know that does JKD do no sparring, do all Arnis right hand only, and focus on little bits of WC like lop sau. While some WC clubs I know of focus on WC fighting predominantly. Again it comes down to: how good is the instructor, how hard is the student willing to work, how long will they stick at it.

This reflects more the general standard of MAs and MAers in general. Most MAers will probably do MA for 3-6 months and never get very good... so having Bruce Lee on your marketing team sure helps get these people through the door with the cash. And those new people are more likely going to be scared off by a high intensity club that teaches hard conditioning and focuses on sparring.

And deep down that is the problem with WC and many other arts, they DON'T standardised the training !
Sure the curriclum may be spelled out BUT the training methodologies are left to the instructors and what do you get?
Some schools spar, other don't, some do this and that, other don't.
Sure they all "do wing chun", but the vast differences in training make it seem liek many do a totally different system !

Take Boxing, or wrestling, or BJJ or kyokushin, these systems are know as much for their trainign AS they are for their techniques, so what do you get ? a pretty consistent standard for ALL schools.

Maybe there is a lesson there.

[afronaut]

Bloods have demonstrated a propensity for violent attacks against anyone. Usually, victims are slashed across the face with little or no warning of the attack. Bloods have been identified in areas throughout New York City; Brooklyn's 77Pct. (Crown Heights), Queens' 100 Pct. (Far Rockaway), and Manhattan's 28 Pct. (11th Street), Bridgeport, East Lyme, Norwich, etc.

In New York City the Bloods have a fondness for WC & a vicious rep. They fight a lot of street contests where different gangs choose amongst many different styles. Nine Trey Gangstas usually claim JKD. Bloods have been responsible for over 50% of the stabbings and slashings... The Bloods (approx. 500) have grown in number to where they now outnumber both the Latin Kings(approx. 350) and the Netas (approx. 350).

Bloods = United Blood Nation, which in New York City jails encompasses the these Blood sets: Nine Trey Gangsta Bloods (NTG); Miller Gnagsta Bloods (MGB); Young Bloods; Valentine Bloods (VB); Mad Dog Bloods(MDB); One Eight Trey Bloods (183); Mad Stone Bloods (MSB); Gangsta Killer Bloods (GKB); Five Nine Brims(5-9 Brims); Sex Money Murder Bloods; Blood Stone Villains (BSV). WC usually Owns JKD and MMA. Now, you know my biz.

You've made your own gangland role-playing game, haven't you. You have character sheets for your own gang in a binder on your desk that work on all night in a Coke and Hot Pocket-fueled binge that upsets your mom to no end.

Why do you break your mother's heart, bowers?

[grond]

And deep down that is the problem with WC and many other arts, they DON'T standardised the training !
Sure the curriclum may be spelled out BUT the training methodologies are left to the instructors and what do you get?
Some schools spar, other don't, some do this and that, other don't.
Sure they all "do wing chun", but the vast differences in training make it seem liek many do a totally different system !

Take Boxing, or wrestling, or BJJ or kyokushin, these systems are know as much for their trainign AS they are for their techniques, so what do you get ? a pretty consistent standard for ALL schools.

Maybe there is a lesson there.

Who is this a problem for? You, ronin? I don't see how it affects you(aside from making it harder for people to stereotype wing chun), and I don't see any alternative being suggested. I would think it's a problem for people who don't have much MA experience but have heard a lot about wing chun(or whatever) and are interested in it. It's basically just luck if they find a good school as opposed to a bad school. They could use their best judgement if they find competing wing chun schools, but it's hard for newbies to know whats up. And that is a shame, I agree. But at this point I don't see any way to 'standardize' the thousands of wing chun schools around the world.

By the way, you make the point that wing chun from one school can be completely different then wing chun from another school, but yesterday you were making blanket statements about wing chun like it was mostly the same('typical wing chun' this and 'typical wing chun' that). Did you just come to this conclusion today?


As for training methodologies varying widely, I think there are quite a few reasons why that is true. There is no governing body or council(the VTAA doesn't really have any power as far as I know). There was no 'succesor' of Ip Man, so no-one in the world can really claim to be the best in wing chun or tell others how to train. Even Ip Man didn't tell his students how to teach. Wing chun doesn't get used in competitions very often so the majority of people don't know which school has 'better' training. Bad schools can have just as many students as good schools.