1/07/2005 9:39pm, #41
I didn't have any real training against multiples, save for some pre-arranged patterns in my karate class which were largely counterproductive. However, I've done striking against multiples later on in my training, and don't think it would have helped much there. There were 7 - 9 people crowded around me, and I don't see any way to avoid getting grabbed.
Also I don't think it was an example of using my head, more of an instinctive response to falling over - you grab on to whatever's next to you.You say what about my rice?
1/08/2005 3:37pm, #42
- Join Date
- Jul 2003
- Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
I think it might be a strong statement to say that going to the ground in this case was "the best option," (staying on your feet with a human shield using standing grappling would probably be "better" albiet an unlikely possibility), but it sounds like the best thing to do if you DO go to the ground, and is a good point against the anti-ground SD thing. But any arguement that you shouldn't train for non-optimal scenerios is... well, retarded.
I somehow doubt that if anyone else were in the situation, they'd have been able to react much more quickly/better than Hapk03. Expecting your and your date to always be wearing track and field clothes is stupid and paranoid. Granted my GF bases her clothing selection partly on how well she can kick and move in them, but how common is that :)
As far as putting down any kind of standup multiple-opponent training though Hapk03, you first off said you were too young to be carrying a firearm, which puts quite a cap on how much training/experience you could have had with MA at the time. Since multiple-opponent training is usually one of the most refined aspects of any system, could it be possible you simply don't have the background (then and possibly now) to say that such training would be entirely useless? I mean... I know that *I* would be pretty much uselss in the same situation, just as I would probably end up dead against an armed opponent if I were empty handed. But that doesn't mean there isn't an effective way to handle the situation if you have sufficient understanding/ability.
One of (if not THE) most important parts in strategy against multiple attackers is probably the initial positioning and continual movement. Even if you couldn't escape, there might have been a more optimal position for yourself when they got out of the cars and started to swarm you, most importantly so that you weren't surrounded.
Any case, this sounds like it was a while ago but I'm glad you're okay, and it's certainly a good point to keep in mind about groundfighting.
1/08/2005 10:05pm, #43
Aesopian.comOriginally Posted by Hannibal
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1/08/2005 11:35pm, #44
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I read somewhere once that in the situation, you want to stay in a mount or even better knee mount. This allows you to get up quicklt if you have to."Prison is for rapists, thieves and murderers. If you lock someone up for smoking a plant that makes them happy, you're the fucking criminal." - Joe Rogan
El Guapo says dance!
1/09/2005 12:45am, #45Originally Posted by Hannibal
Since you have never trained groundfighting (or any kind of fighting) you're not qualified to make any statements. You'd be dead if you were surrounded by 3-4 irritable squirrels.
1/09/2005 4:00am, #469chambersGuest
This is me from an old thread I found. I brought up the idea of using terrain to help out, running to a better position and some other stuff like that:
"Terrain is important. 300 Spartans held a huge army of Persian invaders at Thermopylae for 6 days until a spy showed them another way around the mountain. They did that because they jammed themselves between the sea and the mountains in a narrow pass. Try to find a hallway, a doorway or someplace that limits the directions of attack. Keep an escape route, though. You want to be able to retreat to another good position if they breech your first one. Don't corner yourself but you can use a wall here or there to keep them from coming up behind you.
You can sometimes use obstacles to narrow down the number of guys you are facing at one time. That's why you see Jackie Chan always running around in his movies. He isn't just scared, he is trying to widdle down the directions he can be attacked from at a specific moment by using the terrain and obstacles around him."
No matter how many attackers you are facing, only a certain number of them are going to be able to reach you at any given time. Everyone else will have to wait their turn. Only between 4 and 8 guys in a crowd can reach out and touch you meaningfully at any given time. Out of those 8, only 4 of them can comfortably reach you enough to attack you. That leaves 4 directions of simultaneous attack. The odds are slim that they will all attack at once but 4 are still there. If they are not surrounding you then it might be down to three or even two at once depending on their formation.
You are really facing 4 directions, so 4 attackers. If your back is against a wall you limit that to 3. If you get a good first attack, then that guy may be stunned for a second - then its only two guys for a second. If you can grab a guy and pull him between you and one of the other two, then you limit it to one guy. Take him out fast enough and you can push him between you and the others again before they can attack - then escape or move on to the next guy. [Of course your luck and stamina may wear out after a while so escape as soon as possible.]
I am not saying anything is easy or highly reliable in such a situation but using terrain against multiple attackers can really raise your chances of survival. Also, a good strike can stun a guy for a second or two. Hit one guy, hit another guy and step around so that he is between you and the other guys. Push and pull him where you need too. Hit him again. There are little ways you can actually use the people you are fighting against as obstacles between you and their friends. That can give you a second to finish them off, shove them into the other ones or escape. I think I remember Musashi writing about that for sword fighting - positioning himself with one attacker between him and the others and moving around one so that he blocks out the others.
Another thing about the terrain or your environment: you can find weapons laying around. A broomstick, some rocks, a baseball bat, a stick, a bottle, dirt or pebbles (thrown in their eyes), a Playstation2 controller.. whatever. That's another good thing about retreating to a better position: it can give you a chance to look for a weapon.
Another good thing about running is that if you are fast at all, it limits how many guys can attack you to those in front of a pack. They are all coming from the same direction if you take off running for a little bit.
A drawback of running - it can tire you out. If there isn't a really clear escape then just run for a good position and hold the fort until you need to run again. Remember, don't corner yourself.
Don't get discouraged either. Take the first few out and the rest might leave - or they might hang back to see what happens and then they are alone to face you when you take out the first bunch.
If you go to the ground, that doesn't mean its all over either. You can kick at their shins and knees to keep them back. Maybe even knock them down (falling away from you) with takedowns like grabbing the ankle and pushing the knee. You might even break a knee or two [using kicks] while they try to get close to you. Just don't get in a wrestling match with one guy.
If you do wrestle though, you might keep your back to the ground so you can see where attacks are coming from - but that can get you pinned down. Its hard to give good advice here. Grabbing legs, punching and kicking knees, shoving the guy you are wrestling with into people, rolling [or jumping to a safe distance] - its not over yet. Don't give up. Try to get up again."
* Additional note
Running isn't an easy anser to all of this. You may have a friend or a child that you'd be leaving behind. You may have nowhere to run. You may only tire yourself out or end up lost on their turf. I am just saying that it is important to seek out a good position to defend. Standing in the middle of a grassy field is not as good as running for a narrow hallway.
1/09/2005 4:07am, #479chambersGuest
At one time, I sparred against multiple attackers quite frequently. I don't have access to that many people in a setting where I decide what we do anymore. Maybe sometime in the future that will happen again. Win or lose, it was pretty freaking fun.
Anyway, some more things to keep in mind:
* Use techniques on one guy that will buy you time to distribute attacks to the others instead of spending too much time on one guy, increasing the opportunity for the others to plan and attack.
* Sun Tzu said that failing to take the battle to the enemy when you are surrounded means you will lose.
* Protect your neck and head. You'll most likely get hit. Try not to let it be somewhere important.
Last edited by 9chambers; 1/09/2005 7:39am at .
1/09/2005 4:29am, #489chambersGuest
Some more stuff I posted back in McDojo which I found in my personal archives. I'm pretty sure the threads have long since been deleted. Anyway, here:
"As a standard, I'd say stand up if you can do it. Use your terrain, be fast and look for things you could use as a weapon. If you know there is going to be a fight and you can't talk your way out of it then take the battle to them before they can take it to you. Use good judgement. Run for a better position like a narrow hallway or a doorway. Keep an escape route.
Don't keep going back and forth between guys. Distract one and take out the other one sure, but don't just bounce around from guy to guy. You need to finish off someone quick. Then finish off the next guy quick. Narrow down their numbers as fast as you can. You don't want guys getting back up.
Honestly, I think that in some situations going to the ground gives you a serious advantage. I've done it before in sparring and it has turned out pretty good results. On the ground you have all four limbs available to you at the same time for defense. You don't have that while you are standing up. You can also see almost every angle of attack since its all above you. Nobody can come up behind you if your back is to the ground. Only so many guys can reach you at the same time. They have to bend over or dive to use their hands. If a guy is on top of you then they can't hit you where his body is .. depending on how comitted your attackers are you could be more safe on the ground in rare situations. I know this all seems like really messed up logic .. and yea you could end up stomped to death by steel toed boots.
If you are wirey and fast it might be something you could try out in training though. Sit on your butt or roll onto your back. Throw push kicks at their knees and shins to keep them back. Grab at legs and pull them off balance or push them at the knee. Grab arms that swing at you then let them go when they pull back .. or kick him in the nuts. Punch knees, punch faces, punch balls. If a guy tries to fall on you then push him away with your feet. Keep kicking so he can't hold onto them. See how long you can keep from getting piled on by them.
I usually try to stay away from everyone if I go to the ground against multiple guys. Remember that crab walk from Jr. High gym class? .. use it, then turn over and crawl up to a run. This is not something that most people are going to be able to pull off but some people might be good at it.
Take out a guy's leg and he can't chase you. They won't be in as much of a hurry to rush you if they see you kicking knees. Someone will try to just fall forward onto you though. They always do. Try to push them to one side with your legs and/or attack their head with your hands. Kick them away from you and they will have to start over.
Cornering yourself can work in situtations sometimes too. If your back is against a wall then nobody can come up behind you.
But all of this is just .. risky advice to give to someone. I am only saying to try it out in training. Please don't try this out on the street without learning to do it in training. These are pretty much last resorts too. Don't use it as an intentional strategy. Just have it available in case you need it.
If they are coordinating their efforts and all rush you at once though. You might be screwed. Try to keep them all in front of you by scooting around and turning. It sounds crazy .. and it is .. but its worked for me sometimes in sparring. I'm not saying it is completely reliable. I'm just trying to open up new ideas for people to explore. My point is that you can use the ground to your advantage in some situations. Still .. its a risk. But its a risk standing up too."
>I can't think of any situation where if you
>had your choice of being on your feet (and
>having the possibilty of making a fast break
>out of there) or down on the ground, I would
>choose the ground
* What if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no way you could outrun the five linebackers surrounding you? - or what if you are locked in a room and someone is blocking the door?
Running could position you so that your enemy is coming from only one direction .. but if there is no escape then getting a wall to your back could limit their directions of attack more effectively. (I don't mean right at your back, a step or two from it, you don't want them ramming your head into the wall)
Going to the ground might work the same way to a lesser degree. They have to come down to you. They have to get past your two legs kicking and your arms flailing. You might be able to damage a leg or two, get a kick in to someone's balls or even a strike to their neck - and then you can return to your feet and take off with less of them chasing you.
* What if its in an elevator?
In a cramped space like that any way you can limit their options is good. You could end up making yourself more vulnerable if you go to the ground in the center of the elevator but what if you dive into the corner and put your arms and legs up in defense? Then started kicking at every available target while you guard yourself, slap and grab with your hands. (Keep your head tucked in)
* What if you are already injured or already on the ground when the fight starts? ... Well, in that case you have no choice so that's not one we can really debate. Never mind about that one.
* What if you tried running away and now you are out of breath, less people are around to help and they are still coming?
* What if you are shoved, tackled or just trip and fall while you are trying to run away?
* What if its night time and really dark? ...
If you are on the ground then you might blend in against it and be harder to see while they are silhouetted against the sky or windows.
Okay, those are some ideas. I am not saying that going to the ground against multiple attackers is PLAN A by any means. I am just saying that in rare cases it could actually help. Of course, I believe that in ALL cases it is always going to help to know what to do if you end up there. It is best to prevent that from happening if you can but be prepared for it.
I would get my ass kicked.
Is that what you want to hear? .. It may be realistic but its no plan .. unless you are hoping they will settle for kicking your ass. Maybe they won't kill you or rape you and your girlfriend. Maybe they will just kick you around a little. Maybe they will give you a ride home when they are done and kiss your mother hello too. I don't think so .. if its not some punks at school and its really on the street then I'd kill every last one of the sons of bitches or go down trying.
Cross-training and training as if your life depends on it is the best you can do. That being said .. run like hell if you think you can get to safety. If you think those you may be protecting can keep up. The whole situation changes when you've got your woman with you .. or your son or daughter. You can't run then. What are you going to do?
What if you can't run?
- - -
Given newbs post I think its important to point out that a boxer who knows how to roll with the punches, turn a solid hit into a graze by turning and dodging .. and a guy who can take a shot or two .. well, that training will be valuable.
* What if you aren't alone? What if when you run away you are leaving behind your little girl or your girlfriend? What do you do then?
I heard a joke about two lawyers who were camping and saw a bear. One sat down and started changing from his hiking boots into his sneakers. The other one looked at him and said, what the hell are you doing! You'll never outrun that bear! ... His friend looked up and said, I don't have too. I just have to outrun you.
You can't run sometimes so lets let that option slide for a minute and just talk about what you would do if you couldn't run away.
Assuming that you are a faster runner than everyone in the universe just because you spend time wrestling is a pretty bold statement. I am never going to be faster than Karl Lewis no matter how long I train. He's got longer legs for one thing and several gold medals for another ..
Martial arts is not the only demanding physical activity in the world. There are at least 4 cornerbacks on every high school football team and a half dozen mile runners on the track team .. every year. Some of these guys could be faster than you. Its not a far fetched idea to assume it could happen.
1/09/2005 5:10am, #49Originally Posted by 9chambers
I have to say I once did a drill with around 10 people on one, and I placed my back to a wall. Even if that does guard your back, it also strongly limits your mobility. I found that almost all my time was spent covering up, and very little time was left to even try counter. When I did try counter, I'd be punched/kicked in several places at once.
1/09/2005 6:23am, #509chambersGuest
It's not high percentage, nothing is against 10 guys. I'm just saying, it can help to be able to see everyone. If a wall is to your back then nobody is directly behind you. You have to stay a couple of steps off the wall though. You can't let them pin you to it. Don't camp there. Keep moving along the wall. Step out and attack. You can't play defense. You have to take the battle to them.
There is no defense against multiple attackers, only offense. Mobility is your defense. Keep moving. If you stop to block then you are not punching enough. Strike, kick, shove, pull, jump around, and run here or there. Never defend with blocks and shields, instead dodge by launching into your own attacks. When you are attacking, then you are a moving target. Attack swiftly and frequently enough that you are not the subject of a barrage. Throw punches out there even when you know the targets are out of range because it is harder for them to fire on you when they are being fired upon. Fill the gap between you with your attacks so there will be less of theirs. If you find yourself shielding or covering up then you're finished. Keep your head tucked in behind your arms as you punch, that is your shield. Parry or block while you are kicking, duck and kick when you are locked up, when you duck under your arms step in and shove him. Drop down and come up into a body check or an elbow. Never shield and curl up against the wall or you are done. You have to fire off of that wall like a rocket. You have to be the aggresor. :qleft7:
Some techniques that can help in that situation: when you duck and raise your arms you can use that motion to shove people, low kicks to the legs and abdomen can keep people from coming in so fast or at least make them think twice about it (be careful in sparring, low kicks can hurt somebody), punching a guy and then grabbing his arm and pulling him to a key position .. or better yet using the arm for leverage to pull yourself to a better position (mobility) can be helpful, or pull them right into your attack or someone else's, engage one guy so the other guys will be afraid of hitting him, if they grab you then punch the offending hand and quickly pull free and keep punching or kick low, throw elbows (gunting, parries) or answer the phone on defense because it looks like offense and keeps your hands free to grab or shove or punch next, parry (rather than blocking) if you have to defend because a parry is more easily turned into a shove or a strike or a grab/trap, go for the face with your punches instead of the body (you want to disrupt their vision), a shove is a punch and a punch is a shove, if you go to the ground keep your head tucked in like a turtle, protect your neck, kick people in the balls, growl like an animal, bite, whatever it takes ... also, and most importantly... You must destroy their confidence as fast as possible so that they don't rush you in mass. You must have the psychological advantage. That can be done by taking an aggressive posture with attitude and immediately pressing them, charging them, attacking them. Charge off the wall, don't be driven against it. You are not on defense. Play defense and you'll lose. Attack!
... Of course, against 10 guys you will most likely lose no matter what. It would be best to look for a hallway or doorway (rather than a wall) and make your stand there -- if you can't run and you do have to make a stand. Call for help. Still, no matter what, fight like a madman. The more aggresive you are, the less chance they will have to strike. They will be defending instead of you. Keep them moving around. Keep forcing them to defend. Be quick to take forward ground because then you have distance to use when they next attack. Attack wildly only when you can't see them. Every other second, attack with purpose.
It's hard to win something like that, especially in sparring when everyone knows there's not much to lose so they rush right in, but if you can take a few of them down before you lose then you still come out looking like a badass. :)
Last edited by 9chambers; 1/09/2005 7:29am at .