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  1. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 7:04pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heh, last night during medium contact sparring I left a big welt on my sparring partner's cheekbone just by accident with the front of my elbow as I stepped in and pinned his arm across with the bong sau.

    Also I dont like WC lineages where they encourage:
    People to stand only on the back leg - this sucks for power generation and mobility. As you step in your weight will move forward so use it to your advantage.

    People to always have the same hand forward. Too predictable and easy to counter. I always swap hands and step and pivot as it gives me the initiative. Also being left handed I am fairly ambidextrous.

    People to hold their hands too far out in front - power generation sucks - they should try full contact sparring.

    People to hold their hands too close together - they are suckers for a step in and pin.
    Last edited by Lefty; 12/21/2005 9:26pm at .
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 8:03pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool. One of my very first "automatic" wing Tsun things was a Bong that became an Elbow when it ran into my partners eyesocket!! He kept coming to deep and part of the drill was for the attacker to learn when to stop the attack, and regroup. I kept supressing my elbow strike (bong) and it was becoming bad training for me. I said, "SiHing, your coming to deep and are gona get hit" he didn't believe me so I just had to let it happen to prove it.

    I think he was leaning forward and on the front foot too much, coincidently.... :icon_bigg

    About the man sau switching and the front foot thing.

    In EBMAS we do have a set with both hands out, and even one foot out, not in IRAS. More of a practical self protection thing. You are right, one should learn to use either hand as a man sau, and then switched it as need or double it.

    Some people prefer just to get really super good at one set thing. They use the same man/wu start up for everthing. Some of Bruce Lees back fist stuff does this.

    WT is all about fighting from the back leg. If you are fighting from the front leg, it is not WT. Maybe WC and other branchs have this front stance, but to a WT, that is not Wing Chun. It is the hard style Wing Chun was made to beat.

    Ofcoarse there are moments when moving and stepping when you travel through a front stance. the Drop step is going to front stance but you stay on the back leg due to the fist on their face holding the front leg off the ground.

    The real importance is in the pulling action of the step, and the 100% weight on one foot concept.

    So to me, Wing Chun et al. is avery specific set of conepts and techniques, and to change them to much is to become another MMA, which is good, but not WC anymore.

    PS-Lefty, I realize you want to call the elbow strike a Bong Sau. Do you get what I am saying about the concept that it can not every be an attack, since it is done only as a reaction to anothers attack vector? That once it attacks, it is no longer Bong Sau? Just wanna make sure we are on the same page here, I know what you mean when you say you pinned them or hit them with bong sau.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  3. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 8:49pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah I know what u mean. To me bong sau is just a transitional shape, to define it overly destroys the "feel" of it in the hope of attaining a definition.

    For example ever hear of chicken-wing bong sau? That's the low one held by the side that is used for arm breaks and throws. Therefore to overly define bong sau is not worthwhile.

    WC is not primarily about thought and definition its a thing u feel with your body.

    A real bong sau can deflect a real strike - I often see a lack of full contact striking and deflection in WC. Often peeps would rather talk it out than demonstrate in realistic sparring. ie. the real test of anything is its effectiveness vs a real strike - we simulate this with full contact striking with boxing gloves and the other person counters full speed and full force strikes with some room for error. If you cant do it then then what chance is there in a brawl when someone with strength is really trying to hurt you?

    Also my lineage has 60/40 balance back to front leg as neutral, not 90/10 or 100% back leg. These are subtle differences that make all the difference - yet I am still doing real WC (although I hate this term coz its been trashed by the McDojos). The problem with always having 90/10 or 100% back is there is a 3 points of force principle in WC. You need 2 legs to stand on and 1 hand to punch with - just like when u do 1 armed pushups. Also the 90/10 type of rule is always broken atleast in a transitional sense when closing.

    Like all things being too front leg heavy can cause problems just like dropping the head forward can mean u put your chin into an uppercut or move your face into a bong sau. You need to be aware of the different kinds of risks and dynamics just like with anything else.

    Eg. I once was swept because I kept just doing the same attack and daring my opponent to counter my heavy front leg and slamming pinning moves. In order to do it he had to deliver a full force sweep which involved transferring weight to the front leg in a stomping type step. So in order to counter me he had to also use the same kind of weight transferance that I was using. Before that it was ALL my way in the sparring and I was just using the same movement repetitively to close, pin, strike and throw without any variation just to see what he could counter with coz I kept catching him too heavy on the back foot and unable to redirect my energy.

    There are always pit falls and counters for the specific situation you are in - however u want opposite concepts in a system and to know when to use each, its like yin and yang. WC needs to focus on yang (full force and full speed fighting) at some point or its a system in denial and will be pretty useless except as a transitional MA to something else.
    Last edited by Lefty; 12/21/2005 9:01pm at .
  4. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 9:08pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty

    People to hold their hands out in front - power generation sucks - they should try full contact sparring.
    I'm curious as to where you would recommend holding your hands in a fight...if not out in front of you?
  5. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 9:24pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oops I meant "TOO far out in front". (I have edited to correct this.)

    It makes one prone to being grabbed and means a lack of power generation. I was once told that "Wing Chun is the style that holds the baby". When the arms are held closer in (as u would hold a heavy baby) you can hold more weight in the arms and have more potential energy from a relaxed state. You want to maximise defensive ability and potential energy at the same time.
    Last edited by Lefty; 12/21/2005 9:34pm at .
  6. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 9:34pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hold my lead arm out so that my elbow is about fist-distance from my body.

    Not sure if you would consider that too far, but it leaves me plenty of room to develop good power.

    The problem w/ holding your hands in too close to your body is that they can get trapped.
  7. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 9:38pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's fine mines a fist and a half.

    I think the problem is more if u hold both hands close together - for being trapped. You need enough distance apart so they cant get both with the one pin move.
    Last edited by Lefty; 12/21/2005 9:40pm at .
  8. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 9:43pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't disagree...let me rephrase...I think the problem with holding your hands too close to your body is that they can get tangled (which leads to getting trapped).
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 10:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It must be 100%, zero percent to move the zero leg. If you are even 10/90 then you must shift the 10 back or you can be swept, pulled down, ect...So to kick, step, turn, whatever, you must first shift the weight. The 100% idea is that you do not have to waste time shifting.

    You are correct about 3 points, but if I lift a point, can the other one still stand alone? that is the concept. Since the toes and heel can be 2 points, and these bear the weight, the front leg can be used as a third balance point, but I do not need to shift weight over there. My fist, defense, kick, or knee can also be balance points in this way, but if these find only empty air, my 100% leg can still hold me up.

    IRAS stance has 100% in each leg, or "200% balance". Thats my own saying but you can use it :blob5: . At any time a chunner can move instantly to either leg, due to the way the balance point is moved around. If the IRAS is two wide, then you need to do a little shift over first. Try it. So weight is moved by stance structure shifting the balance point around.

    So, with that concept in mind, WT applys adduction stance to all stances and footwork, making instance shifting from foot to foot possible. Even if you are at 40/60 or something, if the Chun is on, it is really 100/100. Chum Kiu hs this concept in the third segment. After the low double mans with step, you finish with a step high double Man, jut palm strike, with both feet together. This last step is really a pull, with the balance staying back over the rear leg the whole way. If you stoped at any point you would be 100% balanced on the rear leg. I see alot of people just step up to the front leg here.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  10. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2005 10:35pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    It must be 100%, zero percent to move the zero leg. If you are even 10/90 then you must shift the 10 back or you can be swept, pulled down, ect...So to kick, step, turn, whatever, you must first shift the weight. The 100% idea is that you do not have to waste time shifting.

    You are correct about 3 points, but if I lift a point, can the other one still stand alone? that is the concept. Since the toes and heel can be 2 points, and these bear the weight, the front leg can be used as a third balance point, but I do not need to shift weight over there. My fist, defense, kick, or knee can also be balance points in this way, but if these find only empty air, my 100% leg can still hold me up.

    IRAS stance has 100% in each leg, or "200% balance". Thats my own saying but you can use it :blob5: . At any time a chunner can move instantly to either leg, due to the way the balance point is moved around. If the IRAS is two wide, then you need to do a little shift over first. Try it. So weight is moved by stance structure shifting the balance point around.

    So, with that concept in mind, WT applys adduction stance to all stances and footwork, making instance shifting from foot to foot possible. Even if you are at 40/60 or something, if the Chun is on, it is really 100/100. Chum Kiu hs this concept in the third segment. After the low double mans with step, you finish with a step high double Man, jut palm strike, with both feet together. This last step is really a pull, with the balance staying back over the rear leg the whole way. If you stoped at any point you would be 100% balanced on the rear leg. I see alot of people just step up to the front leg here.
    Our footwork is about as different as you can get than yours...not implying better...just very different.

    I admit I have no experience at all w/ the EBMAS system or footwork...but I am having the hardest time understanding how a 1-legged stance could be mobile enough to be ideal in a fight?

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