My current opinions on wing chun

[Tabogganwheel]

I knew that would happen. I reluctantly put it in with the elbows but my point was missed. An old saying, "Bong Sau is not a movement". You do not do a bong as a block. You never do it as an attack. You do a punch or lan, or fak, or even Man sau and it gets bent into bong. People who learn the Hacking elbows in BT to early then have trouble learning how to have a good bong, because they bend into a hacking elbow. Maybe this is why you yourself think the Bong is weak?

It is not an emergancy yet in this situation. The bong can hold.

The Bong is not weak, just very difficult to learn proper.

another old concept. The entire art is to learn how to use bong to beat everything (in the arms). it requires skills, exerience, and awsome footwork. Must not be a weak move if this is the final goal....(Remind me to explain this more later)

I think the system just got to much packed into it. So many things going on with the same moves and the same sets. Each person goes a different way with it, teachs different, makes different discoverys. :tongue8:

I generally see the bong as an emergency movement. It is the only one that is purely defensive. It is also weak withouth the proper footwork. Unlike most other defensive movements which can be used with only a pivot or shuffle, the bong often needs a full sidestep to work effectively.
As for the "bong is not a movement", I do sort of see your point. Often, it is just the result of other attacks/defences. In fact, I find myself in bong very often both in chi sao as well as more free "sparring". It is useful and often quite neccesary, but really, if there is an alternative for the situation, that alternative is probably better. The bong should only really be used if needed, not as a first choice.

[garbanzo]

Why do you think WC is so popular ?

Cause it's neat.

The excercises look neat.

They must feel neat.

[Lefty]

In sparring I use bong sao to attack by:

Smashing with the elbow after making contact with the hands and try to smash them in the face with it while pinning both arms with one arm.

You can also use bong sao to do a low pivoting arm break or throw.

But if you belong to Jim Fung's they do a flat (parallel to ground) bong sao and it is not good for either a throw or the dropping rolling motion needed to pin the arms. Its also no good for protecting the head so they dont use it very much. All other lineages and other CMA systems that use bong sao that I've heard of have the elbow held above the rest of the arm except for them.

BTW at the moment what I'm interested in is doing full contact sparring with boxing gloves in my WC group. My power generation and cardio have really improved as a result and there have been some real awakenings through the heavier contact for my WC comrades and myself. My chi-sau work etc and light traditional sparring have also improved because of the change in the emphasis of my own training to be more specific.

[supercrap]

Bong sau is a very powerful, attacking shape.

It's like any shape in wing chun, easy to copy, difficult to do properly.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

OK, so bong is not critical in WC but only a weak emergancy move, yet it is the cornerstone of the Chum Kiu form? Weird....

I do like it labeled as an "emergency" move because it results only when other moves fail. So That is good. If it becomes an attack like elbow or Kwan, then it isn't a bong anymore is it?

I just had a Seminar with Si-Fu Emin Boztepe and I learned a cool thing. I had been useing Bong/ Wu as a defense, with Wu having to come forward to save me. I have practiced this way for a long time. As I got better the bong sometimes wins,and the wu becomes a punch or a lop. Si-fu showed us how to win with bong everytime.

Ofcoarse it gets even better with footwork and turns, and that is why BT and the dummy form have so much lateral movement. But the action of rolling into bong actually should move a punch off target all by itself.

On a related Side note, alot of WT training is about simple direct attacks. Step in with a kick and punches. Then it is about developeing counters to ways that simple attack can be defeated. My experience is that as you are taught something, you have to look at it and say,"what is it I am escaping from here?" That is it. Attacks and escapes.

Now this creates a defect. You start practicing getting beat so you can then beat the beating...if that makes sense. But over time you may start relieing on the beating to be there to do the counter move. This is bad. This is why doing Chi Sau excersises in a fight with other Chunners would be silly, unless you are super good at them.

In the WT sections, as you get better, the move that is beating you starts to not beat you anymore, and the drill changes. Then the next drill takes over from there. This is what Si-Fu reminded me with his New EBMAS programs. I was forgeting to work on making Bong Sau do the work for me to begin with.

[I aint punchy!?]

....
WT has Double punches and laying palms for body shots, as well as the lifting punch, it has lateral movement and we punch the chest (heart) which gives time to counter people that go low. So I think many of the problems Punchy is mentioning are the result of incomplete trainng programs. WT suffers from this as well, taking to long in the beginning.

No they come from analysing WC from the point of view of full contact sparring.

Perhaps if you are superman you can punch someone in the chest and damage their heart. Sure you could do it if they stood there, chest puffed out, and yelled "Hit Me!". But the rib-cage provides excellent protection for the heart and lungs and other organs lucky enough to hide underneath it.

If you look at those videos no-one bothers with body shots... they all go vertical chain punching. Try vertical chain punching on someones chest... fairly pointless.

Body shots mainly work the abdomen and around the side to the kidneys. A good hit here can KO someone with pain. Baz Rutten loved his 'liver punch', and used it to end several UFC fights. WC doesn't have this.

WC focuses on fights that start with the opponent with their arms up, and attempts to fight around their arms to hit the opponent. This means that body shots are not really possible. You can really only attack the head or chest. And as I've said, anatomically speaking the chest is pretty resistant to punches. So this really only leaves the head.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

Good points....especially in reference to the fight clips.

[Lefty]

Hey Tzu and Taboggan you should learn to attack with bong sau. I made my own form of moves from WC where you attack with bong Sao if my hand was inside theirs, or a pak sao if my hand was outside theirs.

It was all based on stuff I was successfully using in light to medium contact sparring all the time, which I felt required further development. So I figured I'd make a form specifically to practise those moves because this was my naturally preferred style and where I was being the most effective. I was able to dominate sparring almost exclusively by attacking with bong sao.

I have to control the elbow hits as I close because I can hit with my full body weight with the bong sao. As the arms touch I change to bong sao and roll the elbow forward and down (as I step in) to hit the chest or face with the point of my elbow, and then continue through to traps both arms in very tight against the body and then you can really take them to pieces.

[Astrosmurf]

I have to control the elbow hits as I close because I can hit with my full body weight with the bong sao. As the arms touch I change to bong sao and roll the elbow forward and down (as I step in) to hit the chest or face with the point of my elbow, and then continue through to traps both arms in very tight against the body and then you can really take them to pieces.

I would say that you hit "from the bong sau" rather than "with the bong sau".

[Lefty]

I would say that you hit "from the bong sau" rather than "with the bong sau".

I am driving my elbow into the centre of their chest as I rotate the bong sao into a fisted tahn sao with full force.

So I am hitting immediately after rolling from the bong sau and dragging their arm down with my elbow as I roll down. I also hook with the foot as I step in so they cant step back. Then after the roll, they are pinned and unable to get away.