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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 7:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    .... I disagree with some of what you've said.......therefore I mentioned that your understanding of the system may not be as complete as you think. You don't have to devolve this conversation into legalese just because I'm disagreeing with you dude.
    I guess I'm not even sure what you mean here. . .or rather by the previous state,ent that my understanding may not be as complete as I think. Seems like kind of a platitude really. Sure. Ok. It may not. I could say that about anything that I think I know something about. It's nice to see that my comments on WC reflect some kind of understanding to you but this statement if kind of funny.

    "I disagree. . . . .therefore . . . ."

    No wonder you want me to avoid the "legalese". lol
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who's counting techniques? I think you're being stubborn on this point Omar-. . .
    ... I'm just saying that you should have the appropriate tools for most situations.[/quote]

    Yep. I am being stubborn on this point. I admit it. I'm stubborn sometimes. The part you haven't realized, it seems, is that this point is the part I really like about WC. It's the aspect of WC I kind of think really excells even compared to Hung Gar. It's simple.

    And if we're going to start counting techniques........baji might need only 2 forms but you said yourself that hung gar needs 4.........
    Actually, if you read between the lines you'd see I said it only needs 2. One of the other 2 I'd keep for sentimental reasons. Another one is more of a bridge just get between the other 2 as they are so different.

    and you haven't criticized it for unnecessary movements or not 'sticking to the basics'. I'm not really familiar with the different baji and hung gar forms, but it doesn't seem unreasonable for wc to have one form out of three(four if you count the dummy) containing some 'emergency' techniques among others.
    I haven't but I could. I'd have a harder time breaking apart Hung Gar that way but for Baji it's easy. With Baji it's all about the jin. Once you've got that, you thow the moves away, all of them. Their irrelevant. Their just vehicles to develope the jin. Once you've got that, you could do really well with probably just a half dozen moves tops. A lot of the moves in the form are extemely difficult to do with any power. Once you have figured out how to get power from them it becomes a very small step to putting the same kind of power in just whatever movement you do and the specific moves become pretty irrelevant. Just move.


    If they don't interest you, thats ok. But I'm curious- if SLT was worth learning then why don't you practice it? And actually, you did say there was something wrong with the others.
    Only so much time in the day. I never truly learned it. Not in the way I learned my Hung Gar forms where I can remember them even after not doing them for 2 years. If I forget a piece I can go through it slowly and put it back together again. Honestly, I don't even really do the Hung Gar anymore. Recently, on account of JFS's appearance here I have been inspired to start doing them again and really enjoyed it.

    Also, you misunderstood me if you thought I said something was "wrong" with the others. Each of us has to build ourselves as a martial artist. We are the archetects of our own house. So we have to make choices both aesthetic and practical. When I look at my own training and what I need to do and how everything fits together and how much time I have and so on...the other too just don't fit in for me. SLT is a small form. It can be done in my tiny little office standing in front of my desk where I get online. That's a huge value to me. Although I never burned the moves into my bones, I sometimes do like to go through the various pieces of it that I remember. I'm not going to take up Wing Chun. That would be silly for me. I haven't got the time or the energy to put that on my plate. That doesn't stop me from appreciating it though and even learning a little piece.

    Every style has their core. If you are only going to learn a little bit which part do you learn? WC? SLT. BJJ or other ground oriented styls? Basic Positional skills. Muay Thai? Leg blocks and low kicks. Bagua? Circle walking. It's hard enough to really learn a single style thouroughly. If you are going to be a martial arts tourist like I am then you need to be a little selective in what you bring in to your training. You jsut can't do everything.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 9:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lefty, I thought you got banned forever? Welcome back!!!

    WT has Double punches and laying palms for body shots, as well as the lifting punch, it has lateral movement and we punch the chest (heart) which gives time to counter people that go low. So I think many of the problems Punchy is mentioning are the result of incomplete trainng programs. WT suffers from this as well, taking to long in the beginning.

    Back to my linear thing Omar. I was mostly talking aboout the process of learning. I was told once that Asian WC was taught in a wholistic circle that would take maybe 8 years. New students would just join the circle and if they made it long enough they got everything. They always started with the SNT and then CK, meaning the forms where in a set order, but the techniques rotated. One studnt may start with Bong/wu techniques. A year later a new student may start with Jut/shun, or Pak/lop cycle, only because that was what the class was working on. Many quit early and some quiters started their own schools.

    So you then have a difference of opinion as to what the most important things is or what to start with. Its Chain punching, no its trapping, no its offline stepping, no I started with pak punch like Bruce Lee.....etc...I think Bruce quit early, and so did not get all the core concepts.

    Ting Leung took the linear approach and cut the circle and laid it out flat. One starting point and one ending point. We all follow the same path. The forms allready did this and so the later forms come farther down the line. He choose the centerline with chain punchs plus tan or guan to start, but then there is also offline stepping, double punching, spade hands, knees and elbows, many things...eventually chain punchs are the finishing move. Alpha and Omega if you will, the end is a new beginning. Why, because that is where he cut the circle!!

    But by design, the system has an order. Example:Why try to elbow, which is short, when you could punch and keep it long? An Elbow strike (or Bong sau) must always start as a punch, then become a short elbow if compressed. The BT form has elbows on purpose, short to begin with. If a student learns these to early, they start trying to do them when they should punch, and the distance is all wrong. They also never learn to make a proper bong sau. So the BT has many movments that, although simple, require another set of skills to set them up or to create the conditions for them to be used. Thus, for advanced students....

    Following the Whole Circle concept, many of the techniques from all six forms are taught to beginners as the footwork and applications are need. WT entering step, as an example, which is taught from the very first week, is only in the Dummy and Bart Chum Dao sets.

    Ting Leung also said that he looked around at many CMA and using the philosophy and 6 forms of WC, filled in holes in his teaching. Many detracters claim Yip Man never taught this stuff and they may be correct. Maybe it was from the 6th form which they never got, or maybe it was re-enginnered from CMA or Boxing or Aikido, using the concepts and root movemetns in WC. My Si-fu Emin B. used this approach to create a grappling and ground fighting section. The moves and concepts are all from the forms, only the training section is new.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  3. Tabogganwheel is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 11:48pm


     Style: WSL Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tzun Tzu, it seems we have different ideas about the Biu Jee form. As far as I know, the third form is an emergency form. It contains techniques and concepts to use to get out of a bad situation, such as being tangled up, having a broken or unusable arm, or attacked from behind. Pretty much all the techniques in Biu Jee are risky, and only really worth using in a bad situation. For example, the elbows part is teaching how to get out of having your arms trapped, and the movements at the beginning are to deal with only having one usable arm, and thus needing to control an opponent from more of a distance.
    Also, I believe the Bong Sau is not intended as a strike. It is a second line defence for situations where the arms are not ready or in a bad position. It is also structurally weak, and from the way it is thrown, is quite obviously not a strike.

    As for the cyclic nature of learning of Wing Chun, I totally agree. Just about everyone starts off at a different point of exercises. When I began, it was largely with defensive footwork. For others, it was pak sao or something else. The progressions of forms, however is generally always the same.
  4. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 11:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude you need to get a brain transplant or something....or you may be just a kind of a CMA noob.

    ...It is a second line defence for situations where the arms are not ready or in a bad position. It is also structurally weak....
    This only says that your bong sau sucks ass.

    I don't know where to start with your interpretation of Biu Jee. It could hypothetically be right. I'd rather give the benifit of the doubt and assume that its creator had something more intelligent in mind.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  5. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 12:02am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I guess I'm not even sure what you mean here. . .or rather by the previous state,ent that my understanding may not be as complete as I think. Seems like kind of a platitude really. Sure. Ok. It may not. I could say that about anything that I think I know something about. It's nice to see that my comments on WC reflect some kind of understanding to you but this statement if kind of funny.

    "I disagree. . . . .therefore . . . ."

    No wonder you want me to avoid the "legalese". lol
    Its just a way of saying I disagreed with parts of your take on wc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who's counting techniques? I think you're being stubborn on this point Omar-. . .
    ... I'm just saying that you should have the appropriate tools for most situations.
    Yep. I am being stubborn on this point. I admit it. I'm stubborn sometimes. The part you haven't realized, it seems, is that this point is the part I really like about WC. It's the aspect of WC I kind of think really excells even compared to Hung Gar. It's simple. [/QUOTE]

    Of course- thats one of the basic ideas of the system. I'm glad you appreciate that, but that doesn't change my point.



    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Actually, if you read between the lines you'd see I said it only needs 2. One of the other 2 I'd keep for sentimental reasons. Another one is more of a bridge just get between the other 2 as they are so different.



    I haven't but I could. I'd have a harder time breaking apart Hung Gar that way but for Baji it's easy. With Baji it's all about the jin. Once you've got that, you thow the moves away, all of them. Their irrelevant. Their just vehicles to develope the jin. Once you've got that, you could do really well with probably just a half dozen moves tops. A lot of the moves in the form are extemely difficult to do with any power. Once you have figured out how to get power from them it becomes a very small step to putting the same kind of power in just whatever movement you do and the specific moves become pretty irrelevant. Just move.

    Which one is it? No moves or half-a-dozen? (-: Anyways, even when you might be 'just moving' as you put it, your movements are going to take certain shapes. If you've ingrained all the shapes youll usually need then you'll be more efficient.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Only so much time in the day. I never truly learned it. Not in the way I learned my Hung Gar forms where I can remember them even after not doing them for 2 years. If I forget a piece I can go through it slowly and put it back together again. Honestly, I don't even really do the Hung Gar anymore. Recently, on account of JFS's appearance here I have been inspired to start doing them again and really enjoyed it.

    Also, you misunderstood me if you thought I said something was "wrong" with the others. Each of us has to build ourselves as a martial artist. We are the archetects of our own house. So we have to make choices both aesthetic and practical. When I look at my own training and what I need to do and how everything fits together and how much time I have and so on...the other too just don't fit in for me. SLT is a small form. It can be done in my tiny little office standing in front of my desk where I get online. That's a huge value to me. Although I never burned the moves into my bones, I sometimes do like to go through the various pieces of it that I remember. I'm not going to take up Wing Chun. That would be silly for me. I haven't got the time or the energy to put that on my plate. That doesn't stop me from appreciating it though and even learning a little piece.

    Every style has their core. If you are only going to learn a little bit which part do you learn? WC? SLT. BJJ or other ground oriented styls? Basic Positional skills. Muay Thai? Leg blocks and low kicks. Bagua? Circle walking. It's hard enough to really learn a single style thouroughly. If you are going to be a martial arts tourist like I am then you need to be a little selective in what you bring in to your training. You jsut can't do everything.
    I'd say that learning SLT is considerably more then a little piece of wc. If you ever have questions about it or anything else about wc feel free to ask.
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  6. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 12:03am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I guess I'm not even sure what you mean here. . .or rather by the previous state,ent that my understanding may not be as complete as I think. Seems like kind of a platitude really. Sure. Ok. It may not. I could say that about anything that I think I know something about. It's nice to see that my comments on WC reflect some kind of understanding to you but this statement if kind of funny.

    "I disagree. . . . .therefore . . . ."

    No wonder you want me to avoid the "legalese". lol
    Its just a way of saying I disagreed with parts of your take on wc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who's counting techniques? I think you're being stubborn on this point Omar-. . .
    ... I'm just saying that you should have the appropriate tools for most situations.
    Yep. I am being stubborn on this point. I admit it. I'm stubborn sometimes. The part you haven't realized, it seems, is that this point is the part I really like about WC. It's the aspect of WC I kind of think really excells even compared to Hung Gar. It's simple. [/QUOTE]

    Of course- thats one of the basic ideas of the system. I'm glad you appreciate that, but that doesn't change my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I haven't but I could. I'd have a harder time breaking apart Hung Gar that way but for Baji it's easy. With Baji it's all about the jin. Once you've got that, you thow the moves away, all of them. Their irrelevant. Their just vehicles to develope the jin. Once you've got that, you could do really well with probably just a half dozen moves tops. A lot of the moves in the form are extemely difficult to do with any power. Once you have figured out how to get power from them it becomes a very small step to putting the same kind of power in just whatever movement you do and the specific moves become pretty irrelevant. Just move.
    Which one is it? No moves or half-a-dozen? (-: Anyways, even when you might be 'just moving' as you put it, your movements are going to take certain shapes. If you've ingrained all the shapes youll usually need then you'll be more efficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Also, you misunderstood me if you thought I said something was "wrong" with the others. Each of us has to build ourselves as a martial artist. We are the archetects of our own house. So we have to make choices both aesthetic and practical. When I look at my own training and what I need to do and how everything fits together and how much time I have and so on...the other too just don't fit in for me. SLT is a small form. It can be done in my tiny little office standing in front of my desk where I get online. That's a huge value to me. Although I never burned the moves into my bones, I sometimes do like to go through the various pieces of it that I remember. I'm not going to take up Wing Chun. That would be silly for me. I haven't got the time or the energy to put that on my plate. That doesn't stop me from appreciating it though and even learning a little piece.
    I'd say that learning SLT is considerably more then a little piece of wc. If you ever have questions about it or anything else about wc feel free to ask.
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  7. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 12:08am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I don't know where to start with your interpretation of Biu Jee. It could hypothetically be right. I'd rather give the benifit of the doubt and assume that its creator had something more intelligent in mind.
    I've heard from many different people in my family that the main purpose of biu jee is to train the hands to come back to the centerline, or to regain it from your opponent. Of course there's lots of other stuff behind it.
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 12:27am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabogganwheel
    Tzun Tzu, it seems we have different ideas about the Biu Jee form. As far as I know, the third form is an emergency form..
    This is not an incorrect concept. But, due to the limited number of Forms it must be much more than just a few special moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabogganwheel
    It contains techniques and concepts to use to get out of a bad situation, such as being tangled up, having a broken or unusable arm, or attacked from behind. Pretty much all the techniques in Biu Jee are risky, and only really worth using in a bad situation. For example, the elbows part is teaching how to get out of having your arms trapped, and the movements at the beginning are to deal with only having one usable arm, and thus needing to control an opponent from more of a distance..
    Um, ok....I am taught to be smart and not risky, everthing I learn in WT has a place and point. I see the "bad situation" idea, and the need for and answers in BT for this.

    In WT all those things are covered with the first two forms. Omar's point is with is Knowlegde, he can see that all these points are covered even in only the SNT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabogganwheel
    Also, I believe the Bong Sau is not intended as a strike. It is a second line defence for situations where the arms are not ready or in a bad position. It is also structurally weak, and from the way it is thrown, is quite obviously not a strike..
    I knew that would happen. I reluctantly put it in with the elbows but my point was missed. An old saying, "Bong Sau is not a movement". You do not do a bong as a block. You never do it as an attack. You do a punch or lan, or fak, or even Man sau and it gets bent into bong. People who learn the Hacking elbows in BT to early then have trouble learning how to have a good bong, because they bend into a hacking elbow. Maybe this is why you yourself think the Bong is weak?

    It is not an emergancy yet in this situation. The bong can hold.

    The Bong is not weak, just very difficult to learn proper.

    another old concept. The entire art is to learn how to use bong to beat everything (in the arms). it requires skills, exerience, and awsome footwork. Must not be a weak move if this is the final goal....(Remind me to explain this more later)

    I think the system just got to much packed into it. So many things going on with the same moves and the same sets. Each person goes a different way with it, teachs different, makes different discoverys. :tongue8:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 1:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    Which one is it? No moves or half-a-dozen? (-: Anyways, even when you might be 'just moving' as you put it, your movements are going to take certain shapes.
    Really doesn't matter.

    As a practical matter I'd feel like you should have at least half a dozen but in the end, if you really pushed me, I say none at all. But that's an end point, not a start.

    If you've ingrained all the shapes youll usually need then you'll be more efficient.
    If you structure your training away from "moves" and towards movement then you'll be plenty efficient. I've been experiment with these ideas coaching people for the past several months and have made vastly faster progress since I tailored my approach to fit this idea. There are drills and exercises you can create to strenghthen basic qualities of motion that are only related to actual specific "moves" in the most abstract way.

    There is nothing more efficient than the way you absent mindedly pick up a cup of coffee when you are reading or the way you bring your hand up to brush your bangs out of your eyes. All those moves lack is power. For the most part they're as efficient as they are ever going to get.

    It's only through all the judgements and expectations and pre-suppositions about what we are doing that we learn to move so inneficiently.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2005 2:02am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Best explanation of Biu Jee I have heard yet:

    biu gee teaches circular motions, these are used when you are to close to use straight attacks, as your strikes are jammed, and a circle will be better. biu gee also teaches you how to regain the line, if your opponent has taken your center, biu gee also has many grappling, throwing techn iques,takedowns, etc.
    ...which explains why I'm not so interested in it. When I get that close I have just entered "Baji-range!!!".
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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