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  1. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Least Cool Guy in all of Japan
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:10pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    Where did you get your appreciation of SLT from? -I haven't really heard that from any non-wc practitioners before.

    Because, stupid! Omar is a gongfu demigod!
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
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  2. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by supercrap
    Because, stupid! Omar is a gongfu demigod!
    BWAHAHAHAHahaHAHA......:new_astha

    Grond,

    How many non-WC practitioners do you think have ever met anyone good enough to care? We all know how easy it is to find "the real WC". :laughing8

    How many of those non-WC practitioners you met had solid backgrounds in some other southern art like Mantis, Hung Gar or Bak Mei maybe?

    From where I sit, it is not a wierd stance with a bunch of fucked up arm movements that don't seem natural at first. It presents a bunch or really essential concepts that are hard to teach and it presents them in a supersimplified manner. It didn't need to be explained to me. It's value was obvious.

    Maybe you missed my last post or didn't get what I meant about "builind gong fu"? Because that's the real reason. Good CMA is all about building gongfu in your movements. It's not about the techniques. It's about the gongfu. Baji's reputation is built on the time spent on jibengong, the basic exercises of the style. Simple things that are not readily apparently useful. Fa jin drills. Core body methods drilled into you again and again and again. Looking at WC through that lense, Siu Lum Tao is the only one that really does that with any elegance. If you have the gongfu, the techniques come easy.

    "gongfu" is more than technical precesion or strength it is an emergent quality that comes from the unity of those two qualities and more. It's the engrainment of certain neuromuscular pathways and the inclusion of various subjective qualities (that will vary depending on the style) all to create a quality of movement that goes beyond simple technique.

    Siu Lum Tao, more than the others, engrains those things. Things like, keeping the elbow in tight. Incredible forearm and grip strength if you do it right. Truly solid structure for all the basic moves, the ones that will be your bread and butter techniques.

    All this "emergency" stuff. extra deadly techniques, special tactics...etc...all bullshit. No basic gong in your moves and it don't mean ****. None of it will work. You will collapse under pressure like the deerboxer that everyone says you are.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    about forms, nice ideas so far and I will only add my opinions....

    SNT-the root movement of the arms for every WC technique. First 3 segements=basic attacking defense, the rest for chi su and special situations. The last move is for escapes. Also is a template for future work

    CK- Root movements of steps, kicks, turns, Shorteneing to elbows and hooks, but specifically a few fighting combos and the practice of the arm movements in pairs, i.e. Bong/wu, double lan sau, Jut/shun/Biu tze, and some special situations like attacks from behind, from overhead, from clubs, ,...

    BT- A different flavor to add on to what you build up with first two. While the rotational stuff, the "deadly Strikes", and footwork stuff mentioned before may be true, the third form seems to change the way you perform once you add it into practice. It is not for young students but for paople that have mastered the basic Chi Sau training set. Get Biu Tze to earlier and you will impare progress.

    As a template the SNT has root moves of the whole style. The Middle section with double Lan, Jut, Biu tze, and Gum links directly with CK and the last freeing arm move links directly with BT. Each form even begins the same but with improvements to show the developement of the student. Each movement has a corresponding cobat drill to learn to able them. Each drill has a chi sau section to learn the sensitivity of it. So in this way they also serve as a tool to remember the system.

    Prof. Ting Chu, a taoist monk and Martial Arts expert from Northern China compared the SNT to classic Taoist Chi Gung health sets. He said it was very close to them, but tailored for fighting, Still very healthy.

    Was this the thread we wre talking about hooks on?

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
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  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 8:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    All this "emergency" stuff. extra deadly techniques, special tactics...etc...all bullshit. No basic gong in your moves and it don't mean ****. None of it will work. You will collapse under pressure like the deerboxer that everyone says you are.
    The Darting fingers are in both SNT and CK, so they are not secret. The So called secret in Biu Tze is about fighting other WC people. The so called "deadly" moves are only that fingers, faks, and pointed elbows can be fatal or at the least, very bad for you training partner. A student needs to develop control before they are allowed to play around with this stuff. Thats the only "secret", as in, reason it is not for beginners eyes and ears.

    I read that a version of WC in China had many more application forms and combo forms. BT is a form for the applicaion of elbows and fingers. CK is a set of combat combos. This other style has several others and also has other weapons.

    L. Ting has a photo set of a WC in China in his "Roots" book doing a form like Chum Kiu but with different combos. Kinda a mix of CK and BT stuff. I believe that the refinement of _ing __un created the minimum six sets and stuffed as much as they could into them over time. The SNT may have gottem longer over time, but was kept as simple and specific as possible, for reasons Omar is mentioning.

    :5usaribbo

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  5. grond is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 8:45pm


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar, how long have you been training SLT?


    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    BWAHAHAHAHahaHAHA......:new_astha

    Grond,

    How many non-WC practitioners do you think have ever met anyone good enough to care? We all know how easy it is to find "the real WC". :laughing8
    Apparently you did meet someone. Or were you exposed to SLT some other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    How many of those non-WC practitioners you met had solid backgrounds in some other southern art like Mantis, Hung Gar or Bak Mei maybe?
    It wasn't as foreign to you as it may seem to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    From where I sit, it is not a wierd stance with a bunch of fucked up arm movements that don't seem natural at first. It presents a bunch or really essential concepts that are hard to teach and it presents them in a supersimplified manner. It didn't need to be explained to me. It's value was obvious.
    Cool. That's part of what I was curious about. So you just saw it and understood what it was about.....very smart of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Maybe you missed my last post or didn't get what I meant about "builind gong fu"? Because that's the real reason. Good CMA is all about building gongfu in your movements. It's not about the techniques. It's about the gongfu. Baji's reputation is built on the time spent on jibengong, the basic exercises of the style. Simple things that are not readily apparently useful. Fa jin drills. Core body methods drilled into you again and again and again. Looking at WC through that lense, Siu Lum Tao is the only one that really does that with any elegance. If you have the gongfu, the techniques come easy.

    "gongfu" is more than technical precesion or strength it is an emergent quality that comes from the unity of those two qualities and more. It's the engrainment of certain neuromuscular pathways and the inclusion of various subjective qualities (that will vary depending on the style) all to create a quality of movement that goes beyond simple technique.
    I think that all of wing chun does what you would call building kung fu. Granted it's hard to be as streamlined and awesome as SLT, which is the base and foundation of everything else, but it all has a purpose and is certainly elegant to me and many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Siu Lum Tao, more than the others, engrains those things. Things like, keeping the elbow in tight. Incredible forearm and grip strength if you do it right. Truly solid structure for all the basic moves, the ones that will be your bread and butter techniques.

    All this "emergency" stuff. extra deadly techniques, special tactics...etc...all bullshit. No basic gong in your moves and it don't mean ****. None of it will work. You will collapse under pressure like the deerboxer that everyone says you are.

    Are you referring to biu jee here?

    Of course it would be convenient if the basic positions were all I needed, but **** happens. Thats why they call them 'emergency' techniques.

    And why would you think that these techniques or movements have no 'basic gong' in them? Because they're not basic? You aren't being very clear.
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  6. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 11:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grond,

    All techniques need to have gongfu in them but you don't need to train all techniqeus to develope gongfu and not all movements develop it to the same extent or in as generalized a way. The basic stucture of Siu Lum Tao IMO does a better job of developing that stuff.

    In context I was referring to Biu Jee up there but you can generalize my statement to ANY kind of gongfu or even non CMA stuff. Jibengong, in a non-CMA context, would be things like having a good base in BJJ or good positional skills. For Judo it could be good Kuzushi. For w powerlifter it might be something like sufficient grip strength or a good mind-body connection. I am talking about something fairly abstract with extremely concrete consequences. I mean the stuff which permeates all of whatever it is that you do well. If you don't have that kind of core gongfu then when "**** happens" all those extra techniques wont matter. If you DO have that kind of gongfu then you can generally recover with just the basics.

    And why would you think that these techniques or movements have no 'basic gong' in them? Because they're not basic? You aren't being very clear.
    Much more difficult to develope basic skills through "advanced" techniques. You will get the same advice from top Jujitsu players, wrestlers and almost any other combat sport. The non-CMA people just tend to call it "good fundamentals". Fundamentals have depth. Extra techniques add breadth but are RARELY where you develop real skill.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 11:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oops. I missed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    Omar, how long have you been training SLT?
    I don't train SLT. I have trained it with friends. I have compared the way people do it at various schools, read a couple books on WC, watched a handfull of videos.

    I have said this all before. My understanding of SLT and WC in general primarily comes from:

    - cross training with friends.

    - what I can read into it by virtue of the common ground it has with Hung Gar as it is also a southern Shaolin Style and very similar in many respects.

    I have also made comments that can be generalized to ANY style of CMA.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  8. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 12:20am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Oops. I missed this:



    I don't train SLT. I have trained it with friends. I have compared the way people do it at various schools, read a couple books on WC, watched a handfull of videos.

    I have said this all before. My understanding of SLT and WC in general primarily comes from:

    - cross training with friends.

    - what I can read into it by virtue of the common ground it has with Hung Gar as it is also a southern Shaolin Style and very similar in many respects.

    I have also made comments that can be generalized to ANY style of CMA.
    Well, I'm not sure your understanding of wing chun is as complete as you think. For example: I wouldn't call the stuff in biu jee or chum kiu 'advanced'. If anything, biu jee is less advanced and less practical then siu lim tao. SLT has the best strikes and the best deflections in the system. Biu jee has some movements that make more sense in certain situations.
    Put it this way- you use different tools for different projects. You may only use a few 'basic' tools in 90% of situations, but you want to have the other ones handy for that unlikely 10%. It doesn't make the other tools more 'advanced' or better then the basics.


    Plus, the same people who created siu lim tao also created chum kiu, biu jee, chi sao and all the other exercises in wing chun. They knew what they were doing- you've seen it in SLT. They're designed to complement each other. I'm suprised that you can appreciate the concepts in SLT and don't see how well the other forms relate to it.
    Last edited by grond; 12/14/2005 12:24am at .
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  9. Tabogganwheel is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 12:22am


     Style: WSL Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But I think any WC practitioner who has any sort of understanding of the art will agree that SNT is indeed very important. It trains all the basic WC concepts. CK advances the concepts and adds the element of movement. As for BT, it is an emergency form, and is basically just a set of back up concepts for if the normal WC concepts fail. It is dangerous, and kept hidden from people outside WC because it potentially reveals a WC practitioner's weaknesses.
  10. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2005 12:42am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    Well, I'm not sure your understanding of wing chun is as complete as you think.
    I have made no specific claims anywhere as to any particular level of completeness or depth of understanding. I have done nothing more than offer my own personal observations and opinions and on this particular thread I was even asked at one point.

    For example: I wouldn't call the stuff in biu jee or chum kiu 'advanced'.
    Neither would I. That's why I put it in quotes. It's all the Wing Chun websites and other WC practitioners even on this very thread who call it "advanced".

    Put it this way- you use different tools for different projects. You may only use a few 'basic' tools in 90% of situations, but you want to have the other ones handy for that unlikely 10%. It doesn't make the other tools more 'advanced' or better then the basics.
    Put it another way, counting techniques is a waste of time. How much gong fu you have put into what you have is what counts.

    They're designed to complement each other. I'm suprised that you can appreciate the concepts in SLT and don't see how well the other forms relate to it.
    I can see it just fine. It just doesn't interest me. I was asked why I was so interested in SLT and what my opinions were on the others. I gave them. As they relate to me and my situation, the only one truly worth learning is SLT. I didn't say there was anything wrong with the others. I just don't care for them. They're just not as important.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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