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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 5:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cullion's friend summed up my thoughts much more succinctly than I was able to. Must be the Hung Gar. We both see it the same. Here's my critique of Kamon's explanation..

    . . . into positions they have never experienced before.

    ....unless you have experience in some other southern style like Hung Gar, in which case these positions are all ones you are intimately familiar with from your previous training.

    CK - yeah. Whatever. That's all what most southern Chinese forms all do. Nothing unique there. It is something you need to learn but no need for someone like me to go digging into WC for. I think the Hung Gar 2 man sets teach it better.

    CK - You are looking for bridging motions and getting used to using your body as one (footwork moves at same time as your hands)

    Yeah, yeah. Waste of time. Those bridging motions are redundant with the other two forms as for the rest off that...pfft...isn't that what you should have been doing with everything? I also find it far inferior in that regard (body unity) to my basic Baji Jibengong or to Xiaobaji. Taking away the "niceties" is just lame. Most styles I have trained start out that way and the mental exercise is more about how to put the niceties in so that you can train with a partner or with gloves on or under different rule sets. Like the finger jab-->downward backhand bitch slap-->downward backhand bitch slap, that is in my Baji. A rapid 3 hit combo that opens with a finger stab to the eyes....so I have to go back home and ponder how to adjust that to wearing gloves. With gloves on, neither the finger stab or the downward backhand strike works. Or the Hung Gar double mirror hands which is designed to break your arm at the elbow when you throw a right cross or reverse punch. Got to modify that into a more partner friendly version.

    As for the body action...what Cullion said. Better off learning that with partnered drills and regular old sparring. In Hung Gar I find a lot of that kind of skill in the crane sections and in the drunken footwork.

    Siu Lum Tao though, is pretty unique. Even though what's unique about it is mostly found in the opening sequences of Hung Gar's Fu Hok, Sup Yin and AFAIK Tid Sien. (Although I haven't trained Tid Sien, only watched.)
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  2. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 6:03am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Cullion's friend summed up my thoughts much more succinctly than I was able to. Must be the Hung Gar. We both see it the same. Here's my critique of Kamon's explanation..

    . . . into positions they have never experienced before.

    ....unless you have experience in some other southern style like Hung Gar, in which case these positions are all ones you are intimately familiar with from your previous training.

    CK - yeah. Whatever. That's all what most southern Chinese forms all do. Nothing unique there. It is something you need to learn but no need for someone like me to go digging into WC for. I think the Hung Gar 2 man sets teach it better.

    CK - You are looking for bridging motions and getting used to using your body as one (footwork moves at same time as your hands)

    Yeah, yeah. Waste of time. Those bridging motions are redundant with the other two forms as for the rest off that...pfft...isn't that what you should have been doing with everything? I also find it far inferior in that regard (body unity) to my basic Baji Jibengong or to Xiaobaji. Taking away the "niceties" is just lame. Most styles I have trained start out that way and the mental exercise is more about how to put the niceties in so that you can train with a partner or with gloves on or under different rule sets. Like the finger jab-->downward backhand bitch slap-->downward backhand bitch slap, that is in my Baji. A rapid 3 hit combo that opens with a finger stab to the eyes....so I have to go back home and ponder how to adjust that to wearing gloves. With gloves on, neither the finger stab or the downward backhand strike works. Or the Hung Gar double mirror hands which is designed to break your arm at the elbow when you throw a right cross or reverse punch. Got to modify that into a more partner friendly version.

    As for the body action...what Cullion said. Better off learning that with partnered drills and regular old sparring. In Hung Gar I find a lot of that kind of skill in the crane sections and in the drunken footwork.

    Siu Lum Tao though, is pretty unique. Even though what's unique about it is mostly found in the opening sequences of Hung Gar's Fu Hok, Sup Yin and AFAIK Tid Sien. (Although I haven't trained Tid Sien, only watched.)
    Sorry I didn't realise this was a Hung Gar vs. wing chun argument. For the record a guy walked into our kwoon (back when I was a lowly red sash) and stated he had done Hung Gar for 11 years. His name was Wilson Adams.

    We were trying to help teach him the basics, but he kept trying to copy the guys doing chum kil. We did the basic lok sao (rolling hands) drill and he persistantly tried to hit. He claimed that his style was better so I invited him to have a pop at me (I was young and foolish) I took him apart and he quickly apologised. He stayed for his first grading (about a year and a half) and then left.

    It sounds like you guys are not doing the same forms that we do, so I'm going to put it down to that.

    I would just mention that wing chun is one of the newest eastern styles in comparison to many of the other kung fu systems. It is of course going to include most of what other styles teach!!! It is like saying that doing jazz dancing is rubbish because it incorperates stuff from rock and roll or salsa!!
  3. Astrosmurf is offline
    Astrosmurf's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 6:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    ... you should develop this by practicing with a real partner ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    ... the Hung Gar 2 man sets teach it better ...
    I agree that working with a partner is almost always the best. No partners around all the time though. I am currently doing alot more forms-practice than before as I recently became a father and I find it hard to find time to go down to the club for training. The forms are easy to do at home whenever the opportunity arises.
  4. Jekyll is offline
    Jekyll's Avatar

    .

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:14am

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    You don't wait for an opening...you create one.
    You know the more I hear about WC the more I'm convinced it's some kind of chinese RSBD, kind of like "the shredder".

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  5. Cullion is offline
    Cullion's Avatar

    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:33am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    You know the more I hear about WC the more I'm convinced it's some kind of chinese RSBD, kind of like "the shredder".
    There are scattered examples of people doing OK with it in full contact competition (Liokault says he got beaten by a WC guy once), but even the foundation myths of Wing Chun hint at what you said being true (i.e. it being an abreviated RBSD-like self defence system derived from something like Hung Gar or one of its precursors).
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  6. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 7:56am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    There are scattered examples of people doing OK with it in full contact competition (Liokault says he got beaten by a WC guy once), but even the foundation myths of Wing Chun hint at what you said being true (i.e. it being an abreviated RBSD-like self defence system derived from something like Hung Gar or one of its precursors).
    You've just got to find a good wing chun school were they get rid of the stupidness that has been built up around it ('a one inch punch willl send you flying through a brick wall', etc) and use it for what it is - an explosive dynamic system that doesn't use elongated movements or years and years of training.

    Master Chan uses wing chun to devastating effect. He once told me that he used to beat TKD guys by closing them down and I have watched him perform some amazing stuff. You can apply the basic concepts of chi sao to many other arts - BJJ for one. MT for another. It is one of those arts that comes in very useful. It is why I said that you should start off in wing chun and then develop other martial arts through what you have learned. I am currently playing with boxing and find it a good transition from WC despite being a big guy.
  7. Devildog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 8:20am


     Style: Hwardo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kamon Guy, that is a nice web site you guys have, your Master looks to be an amazing martial artist, you are luck to beable to train with him. Also, I agree with you 100% when you say people should start off in WC and then try another style. I trained in WC under Sifu Jason Lau in Georgia (USA) and he always told us we should try learning other styles as well as WC and now that I have done that, I believe it has made my WC better, not that I am adding anything to it, it simply has opened my eyes to more of the finer points of WC.
  8. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 9:01am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Sorry I didn't realise this was a Hung Gar vs. wing chun argument. . . .
    It's not yah numnuts. I spent 8 years (roughly) training Hung Gar from one of the top instructors probably in the whole United States, but more to the point...the point you apparently missed...is that I was reponding to this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrosmurf
    Omar,
    You mentioned earlier (maybe in another thread) that you see WC as something of a subset of Hung Gar techniques and principles. I think that sounds reasonable. You also said that you have performed the three empty hand forms of WC (siu lim tao, chum kiu, biu jee) and that all material felt familiar too you. My question is: What role in Hung Gar has the stuff in the Biu Jee form? (How do you look upon the role of that form with your Hung Gar glasses on?). In many WC lineages it is referred to as an "emergency form" and I am a bit skeptical of this interpretation.

    btw:

    For the record a guy walked into our kwoon (back when I was a lowly red sash) and stated he had done Hung Gar for 11 years. His name was Wilson Adams. . .
    For what record? Why am I supposed to give a ****? How is it relevant to my response to a specific question about how I compare the two styles?

    We were trying to help teach him the basics...blah blah blah.....
    It's good to see your e-dick is still in good shape. You can give the stats to someone who cares.

    I would just mention that wing chun is one of the newest eastern styles in comparison to many of the other kung fu systems.
    That's a non-sequter and not particularly accurate. How old approximately is Wing Chun? Newer than TKD? How about Aikido? Is it even newer than Baguazhang? (unlikely)

    It is of course going to include most of what other styles teach!!! It is like saying that doing jazz dancing is rubbish because it incorperates stuff from rock and roll or salsa!!
    WTF?!? One does just not follow from the other. Not logically or even from any kind of WC oral tradition. The whole apochrypal idea of the art is that it is pared down, simplified, distilled to its essence. It onbviously draws from ther arts that preceded it but you have the class and category mixed up. It is a smaller subset of what is presented by the broader category of "southern shaolin".
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 9:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy

    Master Chan uses wing chun to devastating effect. He once told me that he used to beat TKD guys by closing them down and I have watched him perform some amazing stuff. You can apply the basic concepts of chi sao to many other arts - BJJ for one. MT for another. It is one of those arts that comes in very useful. It is why I said that you should start off in wing chun and then develop other martial arts through what you have learned. I am currently playing with boxing and find it a good transition from WC despite being a big guy.

    I think this may be the core "problem" with WC, and many other systems.

    A handful of elite instructors that CAN make it work, BUT the average practioner "sucks".

    Unlike systems like MT and BJJ and so on, where not ONLY the top guys can make it work, the average practioner is able to handle themselves very well.
  10. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Least Cool Guy in all of Japan
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 10:00am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd rep you if I could Ronin.

    Very insightful.

    I've seen and met and rolled with hundreds of Wing Chun people in the 4 years I trained. In all that time, only 3 people could actually do what they said they could do. Everyone else is just playing patty cake.
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