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  1. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 2:53am

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar,
    You mentioned earlier (maybe in another thread) that you see WC as something of a subset of Hung Gar techniques and principles. I think that sounds reasonable. You also said that you have performed the three empty hand forms of WC (siu lim tao, chum kiu, biu jee) and that all material felt familiar too you. My question is: What role in Hung Gar has the stuff in the Biu Jee form? (How do you look upon the role of that form with your Hung Gar glasses on?). In many WC lineages it is referred to as an "emergency form" and I am a bit skeptical of this interpretation.
  2. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 3:53am


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitain
    The same Geoff Thompson that developed the Fence and such things that Kamon Guy dismissed on the other thread? How strange :)
    I didn't dismiss Geoff Thompson!! I trained under him at a couple of seminars Kamon held and he is extremely good. The guy would take me apart in a second!!

    I laughed when you mentioned the fence because it was like you had quoted Geoff from one of his books. The fence can be a useful tool, but not for how our school does wing chun. The distance is too far apart so we have to do a shorter fence. The fence Geoff mentions is designed more for styles like Karate, tae kwondo and boxing where you want a bit of space for your kicks/punches.
  3. supercrap is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 3:59am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Emergency form is total bullshit.

    It's an advanced form to teach advanced principles... breaking the traditional structure to generate more power, adding rotation and torque in various directions to increase your power, etc.

    I've never liked that emergency form stuff.
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  4. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 4:01am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am a bit hesitant to comment on Biu Jee as I have only run through it with people a couple times. Also I really don't want to call WC a subset. But I think you got my point anyways, not that there is any historical connection besides them both being southern shaolin styles but just that there is huge paralel evolution going on there.

    Without reviewing a video of it or anything and just going from memory...it felt mostly just like the Hung Gar snake stuff. There's also plenty of "biu jee" the technique (not the form) in Hung Gar. Same name, "biu jee"/darting fingers. We also use a "biu ma"/darting horse.

    All in all I didn't see what the big deal was. The only WC form I have ever been really keen on learning was just plain old Siu Lum Tao. That's the one I think that really builds the most gongfu. The others just give a wider array of techniques to choose from. I guess I didn't quite see how Chum Kiu was supposed to do what it claims either. I got more from the two man Hung Gar sets and from sticky hands type drills than I ever did from Chum Kiu. But then again, that is a really hard concept for most people to grasp well. I take it for granted and already did when I was shown Chum Kiu but when I have tried to teach those kinds of ideas to others I haven't had much luck. Maybe if I didn't already have a solid grasp of centerline theory and bridge arm technique I would have found Chum Kiu more interesting.

    Siu Lum Tao is the real gem as far as I am concerned. It's often like that though. The most basic form is the most important. The problem is, most people don't understand about building gongfu. They just want to learn techniques. Siu Lum Tao presents some real basic, core even, concepts of southern shaolin and it presents them in an exceptionally clear and almost platonic way. But then it also builds gongfu. That's such a hard concept to explain.

    Biu Jee just throws a bunch of new tactical ideas at you.

    I could make an analogy to Xiaobaji vs. Dabaji. (small frame vs. large frame Baji). The second one, Dabaji, is the "advanced" form. It is not learned untill Xiaobaji is learned really solid. Dabaji has a greater wealth of tactics and really practical, immediately useable techniques. Stuff I use sparring almost always comes from Dabaji. But the real gongfu is in Xiobaji. It's much harder to make that stuff work. But the time put in on Xiaobaji is what makes you Dabaji superior. It's like Xiaobaji builds more gongfu. Dabaji gives you more techinques to express your gongfu.

    And with that post I have just alienated half the Bullshido audience.

    So **** you all!
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  5. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 4:04am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The person I know who I am most convinced would be able to convincingly apply Wing Chun in a real fight thinks that the third form and the knife form are a waste of time, and has extensive prior Hung Gar training which he still practices.
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  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 4:05am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by supercrap
    Emergency form is total bullshit.

    It's an advanced form to teach advanced principles... breaking the traditional structure to generate more power, adding rotation and torque in various directions to increase your power, etc.

    I've never liked that emergency form stuff.
    See, to me, those other things, added rotation, breaking "traditional" (for Wing Chun anyways) structure....that's all just basic Hung Gar stuff. It's like it just takes off the blinders and gives you some kind of unofficial "permission" to let go of some of the rules of WC structure.

    That's one reason why I like Hung Gar. It's pretty broad and between the 5 animals there are a lot of options for whatever physical or psychological type you happen to be.
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  7. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 4:40am

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I had to stop practicing one of the forms I would probably stop doing Chum Kiu and keep the other two. SLT for the basics and then BJ for rotation, power and flow.
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 4:41am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is the what I was told was the purpose of each of the first three hand forms :-

    Siu Lim Tao: A kind of qi gong exercise routine to strengthen and loosen the shoulder and arm by making you stretch to bring the elbow in and using dynamic tension in various places. The legs were strengthened by holding the stance for the 30 minutes or so it was supposed to take to do the form. I think this form is intended to do what I've heard called 'tendon changing' by some CMA practictioners.

    Chum Kiu: You practice turning from the hips and moving around whilst trying to maintain the structure developed in SLT. It always felt a bit unnatural and artificial to me. There are some kicks.

    Biu Jee: You deliberately throw away most of the 'ideal world' shapes and body structures practiced in the first two forms and duck and weave all over the place, because in real life you're probably going to need to at some point. The guy who could fight thought that doing this in a form was a waste of time and you should develop this by practicing with a real partner or a speed-bag.
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  9. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 5:08am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    This is the what I was told was the purpose of each of the first three hand forms :-

    Siu Lim Tao: A kind of qi gong exercise routine to strengthen and loosen the shoulder and arm by making you stretch to bring the elbow in and using dynamic tension in various places. The legs were strengthened by holding the stance for the 30 minutes or so it was supposed to take to do the form. I think this form is intended to do what I've heard called 'tendon changing' by some CMA practictioners.

    Chum Kiu: You practice turning from the hips and moving around whilst trying to maintain the structure developed in SLT. It always felt a bit unnatural and artificial to me. There are some kicks.

    Biu Jee: You deliberately throw away most of the 'ideal world' shapes and body structures practiced in the first two forms and duck and weave all over the place, because in real life you're probably going to need to at some point. The guy who could fight thought that doing this in a form was a waste of time and you should develop this by practicing with a real partner or a speed-bag.
    Woah!! He told you that Bil jee was a waste of time? Who was your instructor?

    This is what I understand by the forms...

    SNT - You are indeed doing 'tendon changing' and stretching your muscles into positions they have never experienced before. It is also to help develop structure and the basic hand positions

    CK - You are looking for bridging motions and getting used to using your body as one (footwork moves at same time as your hands)

    BJ - This is designed to create explosive energy and dangerous strikes. They call it the emergency form because it takes away the 'niceities' of merely hitting/kicking someone, and replaces it with nasty eye strikes, gouges, elbows, etc.

    I find that for each form you are using different energy and that each brings different elements to chi sao and your fighting
  10. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2005 5:25am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Woah!! He told you that Bil jee was a waste of time? Who was your instructor?
    Neither the teacher, or his teacher thought Biu Jee was a waste of time. The guy I refer to wasn't the teacher I studied under, he was a 'sisok' who mostly trained on his own and was easily capable of handling any other WC practitioner I met, in chi sao or the little bit of sparring we did.
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