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  1. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 11:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You never hear a boxer say that most gyms suck but HIS gym is for real.
    You never hear a BJJ-ka say that most BJJ can't be used for real, but HIS mestre has the real BJJ...
  2. Cullion is offline
    Cullion's Avatar

    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 11:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    I just feel that sparring in wing chun is funny and is never done right. If I spar, I use boxing or a decent sparring style. Wing chun is not a sport it is a good fighting style designed to hurt your opponent, not score points. If you try and use wing chun to fight in three minute bouts you are not using the system right. If you are up against a boxer and you try and spar using WC, you are going to get hurt
    Please explain further the particular differences between full contact competition and 'real fights' which make WC, by your own admission, useless in a sparring or full-contact competition setting but which make it useful 'for real'.

    Are you saying that WC wouldn't be of much use if you were attacked by a competent boxer in 'the street' ?
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  3. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 11:09am

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    I have no idea what this means:

    " I just feel that sparring in wing chun is funny and is never done right. If I spar, I use boxing or a decent sparring style. Wing chun is not a sport it is a good fighting style designed to hurt your opponent, not score points. If you try and use wing chun to fight in three minute bouts you are not using the system right. If you are up against a boxer and you try and spar using WC, you are going to get hurt "
    It means WC doesn't work, unless you rush someone and try to beat the crap out of them, without waiting for an opening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  4. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 11:40am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Please explain further the particular differences between full contact competition and 'real fights' which make WC, by your own admission, useless in a sparring or full-contact competition setting but which make it useful 'for real'.

    Are you saying that WC wouldn't be of much use if you were attacked by a competent boxer in 'the street' ?
    In wing chun, you're only option against a boxer is to basically close distance quickly and 'shut him down' in a ring/spar, this would be broken up.

    Wing chun is nasty. It uses eye gouges, finger strikes, sinking/iron palms and elbows. Not many sports that you could use these. Even in the UFC, most of these techniques are banned. You can still fight with wing chun without these, but the point is it gets the fight over quicker if you can just stick a finger in the guys eyes!!! Wing chun was not designed to spar. Yip Man never did sparring, Ip Chun never did sparring. They used the wing chun in challenge fights which is about as close as it gets.

    The whole concept of sparring is not to hurt your opponent, but rather try to 'play' and find weaknesses, improve footwork, etc. In wing chun, you shouldn't need to improve your footwork!! You are dragging the fight out if you approach someone with your hands up and try to box him.
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 11:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    In wing chun, you're only option against a boxer is to basically close distance quickly and 'shut him down' in a ring/spar, this would be broken up.

    Wing chun is nasty. It uses eye gouges, finger strikes, sinking/iron palms and elbows. Not many sports that you could use these. Even in the UFC, most of these techniques are banned. You can still fight with wing chun without these, but the point is it gets the fight over quicker if you can just stick a finger in the guys eyes!!! Wing chun was not designed to spar. Yip Man never did sparring, Ip Chun never did sparring. They used the wing chun in challenge fights which is about as close as it gets.

    The whole concept of sparring is not to hurt your opponent, but rather try to 'play' and find weaknesses, improve footwork, etc. In wing chun, you shouldn't need to improve your footwork!! You are dragging the fight out if you approach someone with your hands up and try to box him.

    In boxing, as long as you are hitting, you will not be "broken up".
    If you can't punch a guys head, what makes you think you can poke him in the eye ??
    As for challenge matches, Rickson is 400 - 0 BABY !!!!

    Kidding aside, many arts have done challenge matches, many fighters, including some here, have done "real" challenge matches, and we are still here and never had to realy on the "uber deadly finger poke".
  6. Devildog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 1:02pm


     Style: Hwardo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    It means WC doesn't work, unless you rush someone and try to beat the crap out of them, without waiting for an opening.
    Jekyll, what are you talking about? In WC, you don't have to wait for an opening and you don't have to rush your opponent. WC works very well if you are patient and wait for your opponent to come to you. Once this happens, you can create your opening to finish the fight. The best thing about WC, in my opinion, is it allows you to finish a fight very quickly.

    As far as a boxer coming into a WC school and owning a noob, that would be the case in any MA school, regardless of the style, not that boxing is better than MA, just that the boxer has fighting experience whereas a noob, more than likely, has none.

    I just don't understand why people have to say one style is better than the other, no one has studied every martial arts in the world. There have been times when a WC guy gets owned by a TKD guy and the same TKD guy gets owned by another WC guy. We all get out of MA what we put into it. We are all martial artists so why can't we try to learn from each other?

    :guitar:
  7. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 1:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devildog
    Jekyll, what are you talking about? In WC, you don't have to wait for an opening and you don't have to rush your opponent. WC works very well if you are patient and wait for your opponent to come to you. Once this happens, you can create your opening to finish the fight. The best thing about WC, in my opinion, is it allows you to finish a fight very quickly.
    Surely, you have to close the gap yourself if you intend to fight at a closer range than your opponent.
    Waiting for an opponent to put himself in the right position for you is not finishing a fight quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  8. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 2:35pm


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    In wing chun, you're only option against a boxer is to basically close distance quickly and 'shut him down' in a ring/spar, this would be broken up.

    Wing chun is nasty. It uses eye gouges, finger strikes, sinking/iron palms and elbows. Not many sports that you could use these. Even in the UFC, most of these techniques are banned. You can still fight with wing chun without these, but the point is it gets the fight over quicker if you can just stick a finger in the guys eyes!!! Wing chun was not designed to spar. Yip Man never did sparring, Ip Chun never did sparring. They used the wing chun in challenge fights which is about as close as it gets.

    The whole concept of sparring is not to hurt your opponent, but rather try to 'play' and find weaknesses, improve footwork, etc. In wing chun, you shouldn't need to improve your footwork!! You are dragging the fight out if you approach someone with your hands up and try to box him.
    I think that if you can control a person well enough to poke your finger in their eye, then you could probably punch them in the face. Don't you agree?
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  9. Southpaw is offline
    Southpaw's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    It means WC doesn't work, unless you rush someone and try to beat the crap out of them, without waiting for an opening.
    You don't wait for an opening...you create one.
  10. missile is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 2:59pm


     Style: Judo + Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    In wing chun, you're only option against a boxer is to basically close distance quickly and 'shut him down' in a ring/spar, this would be broken up.
    You can go to just about any Muay Thai or MMA school and do some sparring which will not be magically called to a halt upon entering a clinch. And while we're on the subject, how come I never see anything like underhooks/overhooks in wing chun? It's just that as teh ultimate closs-range style, I would have thought that clinching would rate at least a passing mention. But I digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Wing chun is nasty. It uses eye gouges, finger strikes, sinking/iron palms and elbows. Not many sports that you could use these. Even in the UFC, most of these techniques are banned. You can still fight with wing chun without these, but the point is it gets the fight over quicker if you can just stick a finger in the guys eyes!!! Wing chun was not designed to spar. Yip Man never did sparring, Ip Chun never did sparring. They used the wing chun in challenge fights which is about as close as it gets.
    Actually, I did wing chun for a while. I even liked some of the ideas, though not the way the system was taught. In any case, we were taught various techniques that certainly would be legal in UFC, including these vertical-fist punches which you may be familiar with. Elbows can be used too, and I don't recall seeing any rules against the iron palm in the UFC rule set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    The whole concept of sparring is not to hurt your opponent, but rather try to 'play' and find weaknesses, improve footwork, etc.
    Yup. Its sort of like chi sao, except that you try and make it a bit like a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    In wing chun, you shouldn't need to improve your footwork!!
    Because your footwork is already perfect? Because your legs are amputated upon completion of the wooden dummy form? Seriously, I don't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    You are dragging the fight out if you approach someone with your hands up and try to box him.
    True. If you keep your hands down, the fight will be concluded much more quickly.

    Look, as I said, I like some of the concepts I was exposed to in wing chun. But there is no good justification for not sparring. To improve in any activity you have to perform that activity repeatedly. Failing that, you perform the closest analog that you can find. Sparring may not equal fighting but it comes much closer to it than does chi sao or any other drill you can imagine.

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