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  1. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 2:28am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dr. Tzun Tzu is suffering the fate of most wing chunners, including myself in the past, that is making comments about other arts we know nothing about.

    One thing I do know (I think) is that the hook sure as hell is not powered by the pec.
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  2. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 3:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    True

    There are sooo many ideas of jab and hook, and cross, and Upper cut. I try to just use the general idea of it on the internet.

    Jab= Vertical fist on centerline, Longer but can be medium
    See, that's a verticle punch, not a jab. Go to 100 baxing gyms and find me even one who teaches to jab with the fist verticle. Thaiboxers don't either. That's a good punch but not a jab.

    Cross= Not on centerline, with twist or at angle (less vertical fist), medium to long

    Both of these are done with extention of arm in straight line, power from tricep. Cross has twist to it
    Of all the muscles involved in a cross, the tricep probably ranks about number 35 or so in terms of delivering power to a cross. . . ok maybe number 8 or 10. NOT a primary mover. I would also not say the centerline is even involved with defining across. Why can't you throw a cross down the centerline? That's where the jaw is.

    Hook= Not extending and using a bent elbow shape (90 to 135 degree angle). Curved and powered by peck.

    I will leave the footwork and torso out for now.
    As was just said, no footwork, no torso = no hook. You just have some kind of vaguely hook looking punch.

    Maybe people are calling a long cross a Jab?
    I don't think anyone is making that mistake. There is a reasonable agument to be made for ditinguishing between a snapping lead arm punch that is kind of whip like and a "heavier" lead punch that is more of a power shot with maybe a drop step involved or something but they are both often called "jabs". Lead arm shoots out landing with the fist horizontal and whips back very very quickly. You have to define the footwork as well or else I could claim I am "jabbing" in Baji when I punch out sideways from a bow stance. A jab means you are in some kind of approximation of a boxers stance and you either don't step or you step forward a bit with the lead leg.

    You can't separate the footwork from the punches. Footwork changes everything.
    Omar, did Tyson, in eneral, use alot of hooks from all angles?
    I haven't wathed a ton of Tyson fights. I've watched a handfull. IMO, not really. He used a lot of hooks but it seemed to me like he tended to always be coming up from underneath. I mean he had a couple of angles which he heavily favoured. He never stuck me as that particular kind of boxer. Jones was more like that. I don't mean he didn't vary it but compared to a lot of boxers I just don't think so.

    He also tended to either lunge in or squat down and come up.

    But like I said, I've only seen a handfull of his fights.

    I think my favorite kind of punch I see getting a lot of KO's with is where a guy will lunge in deep to his opponents left underneath some guys punch and bring in the overhand right hard. I've seen a couple KO's that way and they are sweet.

    One thing I do know (I think) is that the hook sure as hell is not powered by the pec.
    Damn straight. FAR more from the legs and the obliques and even the abs.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  3. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 6:21am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please note there are no hooks in wing chun. Reason? The footwork would never match.

    The energy produced by the turning of the hip is most efficient when used with a straight punch. To use a hook with wing chun footwork is just a waste of energy.

    The reason you do drills with a hook is to train your tan sao!!

    Boxers have fluid loose footwork, so a hook is easy to perform and the power/energy is just right.

    My advice is to train yourself as an adpatable fighter, that is a fighter who can use wing chun, boxing, grappling, etc.

    It is no good mixing them up (grappling/clinching in a wing chun stance, etc), but you can switch between them
  4. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 6:46am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I sense a disturbance in the force . . .
  5. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 6:56am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is only one shortcut in the martial arts world.

    Give up wing chun NOW rather than 5 years down the track.

    It's the only shortcut worth taking.
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  6. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 7:13am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Omar

    1) You ever notice how rare jabs are in MMA? They are an essential tool for a boxing or kickboxing match. In a bigger context, not so much. Longest range technique will always be a kick. For me, especially as I try to really actualize a true Baji!!! game plan, it's all about running the guy over. There's jabbing-like techniques but a real basic, almost fundamental strategy for Baji is to blast in to the inside immediately. The basic counter to 90% of all techniques is "move in", hence my enthusiasm for the "Short Power" thread.

    I do not watch Pride and UFC much, but I saw a fight between Wanderlei Silva and a judoka full of jabs. I believe the use of jabs depends much on the fighter´s goals: if you want to keep your distance, you should use jabs and crosses a lot. If you don´t, then I would agree that jabs are not the best tactical option.

    But I do not believe it is wise to discount a tactical option, ever. So I like my jabs, even though I am a stand up grappler at heart (judo experience and all that).

    2) Posture. Footwork. Hooks require certain footwork. I have pretty specific opinions on what constitutes a hook and simply using rotational power to punch in from the side doesn't do it. Options?

    The options you described certainly should not be ignored, but I do not see them as perfect substitutes for hooks, and I am quite sure a hook is not a perfect substitute for any of them. I hope you understand where I am coming from here: I do not believe hooks and jabs are the be all of striking, but I do believe they are essential. Yes, you could probably fight without essential techniques, but why would you want to do that?

    I like to add things to my game, not remove them. If I found a baji/taijiquan master hanging around here, I would hear what he had to say and I would try to add his stuff to my game, but I certainly would not throw away any of my techniques, specially working ones such as the jab and the hook!

    3) I haven't sworn hooks off completely but I am working very hard these days to unlock Baji tactical and strategic combination and not just throw in the odd Baji technique here and there when sparring.

    I believe we are coming from different perspectives here. You are (I believe) coming from the point of view of a Baji practitioner, who is, at the moment, concentrating on Baji. I am trying to argue from the point of view of someone who wants to grab whatever there is out there, as long as it is useful.

    4) I forget the exact context of the original comment that I was responding to but I'd say that "dodging" as a goal in it's self is counter produtive. Don't see the punches to dodge. See the negative space to leap into. Fundamental Baji principle

    Certainly, I agree with you. What I object to is the idea that forward pressure should be kept at all times. When I fight someone bigger and stronger, it is probably a good idea to come from his sides, to outflank him: therefore I should dodge his attacks FIRST, use forward pressure SECOND. I certainly can´t speak about Baji, but WC schools usually are completely obsessed with keeping forward pressure all the time. This, I believe, comes from lack of sparring...
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  7. Mr.Mundane is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 8:30am


     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    1) You ever notice how rare jabs are in MMA? They are an essential tool for a boxing or kickboxing match. In a bigger context, not so much. Longest range technique will always be a kick. For me, especially as I try to really actualize a true Baji!!! game plan, it's all about running the guy over. There's jabbing-like techniques but a real basic, almost fundamental strategy for Baji is to blast in to the inside immediately. The basic counter to 90% of all techniques is "move in", hence my enthusiasm for the "Short Power" thread.

    I do not watch Pride and UFC much, but I saw a fight between Wanderlei Silva and a judoka full of jabs. I believe the use of jabs depends much on the fighter´s goals: if you want to keep your distance, you should use jabs and crosses a lot. If you don´t, then I would agree that jabs are not the best tactical option.

    But I do not believe it is wise to discount a tactical option, ever. So I like my jabs, even though I am a stand up grappler at heart (judo experience and all that).

    2) Posture. Footwork. Hooks require certain footwork. I have pretty specific opinions on what constitutes a hook and simply using rotational power to punch in from the side doesn't do it. Options?

    The options you described certainly should not be ignored, but I do not see them as perfect substitutes for hooks, and I am quite sure a hook is not a perfect substitute for any of them. I hope you understand where I am coming from here: I do not believe hooks and jabs are the be all of striking, but I do believe they are essential. Yes, you could probably fight without essential techniques, but why would you want to do that?

    I like to add things to my game, not remove them. If I found a baji/taijiquan master hanging around here, I would hear what he had to say and I would try to add his stuff to my game, but I certainly would not throw away any of my techniques, specially working ones such as the jab and the hook!

    3) I haven't sworn hooks off completely but I am working very hard these days to unlock Baji tactical and strategic combination and not just throw in the odd Baji technique here and there when sparring.

    I believe we are coming from different perspectives here. You are (I believe) coming from the point of view of a Baji practitioner, who is, at the moment, concentrating on Baji. I am trying to argue from the point of view of someone who wants to grab whatever there is out there, as long as it is useful.

    4) I forget the exact context of the original comment that I was responding to but I'd say that "dodging" as a goal in it's self is counter produtive. Don't see the punches to dodge. See the negative space to leap into. Fundamental Baji principle

    Certainly, I agree with you. What I object to is the idea that forward pressure should be kept at all times. When I fight someone bigger and stronger, it is probably a good idea to come from his sides, to outflank him: therefore I should dodge his attacks FIRST, use forward pressure SECOND. I certainly can´t speak about Baji, but WC schools usually are completely obsessed with keeping forward pressure all the time. This, I believe, comes from lack of sparring...


    1) & 2) Well, I'm not really certain here, but this can be a result of the footwork and posture. In Boxing, the heels are usually floating, so it's more ''confortable'' to work on jabs and the hip turning for hooks. Just a suggestion, not claiming anything here.

    3) It's quite common to people in CMA to learn another style after they ''finish''
    the technique curriculum to the point where they can use them just fine. But it's not like they think ''Ok, so I'm going to use Wing Chu to beat the **** out of this guy, Baji to kick that one's ass, Tai Chi to...''. It's all going to flow together in the middle of action; which means you have your own Kung Fu (your OWN Kung Fu, that doesn't mean you can create a style just out of spite), which translates into a personal fighting style. Fighting is, after all, just people trying to hit each other.

    4) Really? They never taught base rotation and angle stepping? I've never seen someone in Chum Kiu or higher keep the pressure forward only, since it's too easy to defend against it.
  8. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 8:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    4) Really? They never taught base rotation and angle stepping? I've never seen someone in Chum Kiu or higher keep the pressure forward only, since it's too easy to defend against it.
    I'm not talking about WC. I never put any serious time in with that stuff. I have been friends with some top flight WC guys and I spent 8 years in Hung Gar which is nearly the same damn thing but when I say that:

    ... "dodging" as a goal in it's self is counter produtive. Don't see the punches to dodge. See the negative space to leap into...
    That is independant of style. As far as I am concerned that is a fundamental principle. No dodge. No block . . . .ATTACK!. Don't see the problems. See the solutions. Don't see the tension. See the areas that are relaxed. SEE. There is much more to see if you aren't so focused on the other guys arms and legs.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 8:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WC Lawyer,

    Trying to always add tool to your box is great but at some point you may want to think about how you contstuct the entire house. Just because you have collected all that first rate lumbar doesn't mean you have to use every last piece.

    I am in the process of creating a fighter, one that is a wholistic entity where everything works together as a system and not as a collection of individual parts. That may mean discarding a perfectly good technique because it doesn't mesh.

    And btw, Mr Mundane:

    ''Ok, so I'm going to use Wing Chu to beat the **** out of this guy, Baji to kick that one's ass, Tai Chi to...''.
    Actually, sometimes I do. I really enjoy training in Baguazhang as well and have been circle walking for a long time. Often, especially if I see the other guys foot work is overly limited, I will switch to baguazhang and use what I know of those strategies. Maybe some day I will blend them but for now they are pretty distinct.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/30/2005 9:02am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    WC Lawyer,

    Trying to always add tool to your box is great but at some point you may want to think about how you contstuct the entire house. Just because you have collected all that first rate lumbar doesn't mean you have to use every last piece.

    I am in the process of creating a fighter, one that is a wholistic entity where everything works together as a system and not as a collection of individual parts. That may mean discarding a perfectly good technique because it doesn't mesh.
    Well, everyone works differently.

    Personally, I believe that, when it comes to unarmed fighting, it is essential to have a "Plan A", comprising your general strategy and your favorite techniques, and lots of secondary assorted techniques and strategies to be used if/when the occasion arises - the more the better.

    The only limits, of course, would be time and your physical limits as to the techniques and strategies you can learn to incorporate in your game (even if only as a secondary technique/strategy). One should not use something he/she is not acquainted with.

    So I believe a fighter should have varying "levels" of fighting techniques and strategies. Yes, you may want to discard a hook as your technique of choice in most situations: but since you already know it, why not keep it in the back of your mind, ready for use if the occasion arises? Why not practice it occasionally, just to keep it well honed?

    In my case, for instance, I have the WC straight punch. I don´t like it, I won´t use it if I can use something else, but SOMETIMES I have opportunity to use it. That is why I sometimes practice it by myself: I already invested time and energy on that move, it would be a pity to waste it (not to mention stupid).
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats

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