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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:21am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No. Only one of the two guys had experience in other stuff.

    I can also vouch for others of his students who had no MA background. I'm not saying "it's the fighter". If you go that road then you may as well just throw out all the stuff out there. I'm saying it's the TRAINING and the style. Remember I jumped in on this "lovefest" to bash on some blowhard making excuses about WC taking a long time to learn. That's just bullshit. Taijiquan takes a long time to learn. Baguazhan takes a long time to learn. Wing Chun . . . .is about as easy as Chinese styles come. The only thing I can think of that maybe comes easier is choi li fut but THAT style had ENDLESS forms.

    If you just put the same amount of blood sweat and tears into WC training as the average Muay Thai guy puts in, you should be at no disadvantage. Looking back at Supercraps comment:

    Having spent many years in wing chun, and still sucking hard, but still being thrown around by my sifu, I can tell you it DOES take years to get good at.
    I say no. Of course it takes many years to get better than your own teacher. But to kick ass over some randomly selected Kyokshinkai/Muay Thai/Random Chinese style guy should take no longer than with any other style.

    That thing about complexity is completely contrary to the basic core of WC theory. It is just an excuse for bad teaching.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  2. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:30am

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    No. Only one of the two guys had experience in other stuff.

    I can also vouch for others of his students who had no MA background. I'm not saying "it's the fighter". If you go that road then you may as well just throw out all the stuff out there.
    I wasn't referring to your specific example but more of a feeling that I have about chunners in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    If you just put the same amount of blood sweat and tears into WC training as the average Muay Thai guy puts in, you should be at no disadvantage.
    Yes, my point was that the blood/sweat/tears part has been lost to many practitioners.
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:30am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    My bad Omar I used your name in the wrong place correction coming.
    Oops. I already responded to it. :icon_shak

    Quote Originally Posted by Astrosmurf
    Often when you read about somebody who is said to be really good at WC they have also alot of training in another style (or styles).
    I've almost never met anyone who was truly good who didn't have background in numeous styles. That doesn't mean they cross train. It just means they have been around a bit, changed cities maybe, didn't like something at one school, didn't gell with the teacher. Just randomly grab an MMA guy and find me one that didn't do at least 3 other arts before they did whatever it is that they do. My teacher can claim expertese in at least 5 different styles. My teacher before that could claim at least 5 as well. I have trained in and can speak intelligently on 5 or 6. I can actually step and represent using at least 4 of them. So that invalidates my status as a Baji lineage holder?

    Could it be that most WC has come to focus too much on the theory and forgets to make fighters out of people. They give them the shape of the tools and the concepts but not the conditioning and mental part of being an actual fighter.
    Abso-fucking-lutely.

    Most of the WC pussies I have met have been talkers. Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk Talk . . .*yawn*. A lot of things can be explained too early and too much.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:30am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, this drives me nuts, once corrupted you can't say you use pure WC principles. I would love to see you use good WC but, it would be mixed no matter how pure you think it would be.

    IMO there are no longer any pure arts.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 11/28/2005 10:35am at . Reason: Stupid blanket statement
  5. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:36am

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    So that invalidates my status as a Baji lineage holder?
    No that was not what I was meaning to say. I am trying to say too much with too few sentences I think. My point was that most of the people I have heard about that did WC and supposedly kicked ass were already "fighters" when they took up WC and alot of the people you see who comes from a pure WC environment tend to be sucky deer-boxers.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:36am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Also, this drives me nuts, once corrupted you can't say you use WC principles. I would love to see you use good WC but, it would be mixed no matter how pure you think it would be.

    IMO there are no longer any pure arts.
    Dude there never were, unless you actually take literally the origin stories about things being revealed in their entirety in dreams, or taught by taoist immortals in the forest, or during a moment of enlightenment whilst watching some animals or something.

    All styles came into existance, at some point, from a mix of what already existed that some well known fighter felt suited them as their personal mix, plus perhaps a few new insights, and were altered by each subsequent generation.
  7. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:36am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Astrosmurf
    I wasn't referring to your specific example but more of a feeling that I have about chunners in general.
    Oh yeah. I can agree with you there I suppose. I find the same thing with Taijiquan. I have to this day, 20 years of wandering around the MA world, and I have NEVER, not even once, found a Taiji guy who could fight his way out of a wet paper bag who didn't have solid training in some "lowly" external style first.

    That doesn't mean that what they did wasn't pure taiji or that they mixed. It just means that they had realisitic ideas about how things went down. They actually knew what a real punch looked like and just how strong some people could be. That's why I, like JFS (I believe), don't believe in crosstraining so much as what I personally like to call "tourism". Just get acquainted with what other people are doing. Tastee the flavour. Cross hands. Maybe even train a month or something. Find out for real what you will be facing.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:38am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Oh yeah. I can agree with you there I suppose. I find the same thing with Taijiquan. I have to this day, 20 years of wandering around the MA world, and I have NEVER, not even once, found a Taiji guy who could fight his way out of a wet paper bag who didn't have solid training in some "lowly" external style first.
    You need to visit us in Oxford dude.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 10:43am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Dude there never were, unless you actually take literally the origin stories about things being revealed in their entirety in dreams, or taught by taoist immortals in the forest, or during a moment of enlightenment whilst watching some animals or something.

    All styles came into existance, at some point, from a mix of what already existed that some well known fighter felt suited them as their personal mix, plus perhaps a few new insights, and were altered by each subsequent generation.

    Dude, there are millions of fighters (myself at one point) that believe this 100%. Look at the lineage wars of WC.

    My point is when someone says I will show you pure WC principles you can't subtract everything else that was learned. It isn't the so called "pure, real. original" style they initially learned.

    I don't mean pure as in the original creation.
  10. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2005 11:05am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Hi Kamon guy. From your user name I take it you train under Kevin Chan ?

    I've never been to one of his classes, but I'm aware that he is a BJJ purple belt (perhaps brown these days?). He sounds quite cool, does he encourage you guys to spar with your wing chun and enter full contact comps ?
    Yeah, Sifu is now a brown belt at Gracie Barra. He is a tough guy but very humble. It is a pleasure to train under him.

    I regularly train in Muay Thai as a personal development, but a lot of our students play with the concept of sparring and real fighting.

    Sifu trains with K1 fighters, boxers, MT guys and BJJ guys. He recently won silver at the worlds (BJJ).

    Obviously you need to build up your skills before you spar. You cannot aske a beginner to spar with a senior level wing chun guy. Why? Because the guy who has come off the street could be a black belt in TKD!! He would merely fall back on his TKD training rather than use the concepts of wing chun.

    Later on, when wing chun has been developed, people can use whatever knowledge they have of other arts to develop.

    It's like me walking into a boxing gym and then saying 'come over here and box this fighter'. I would have to first develop the skills of boxing and then compete

    Hope that clarifies

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