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  1. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:30pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When something goes so spectacularly untested for so long and claims to be the supreme fighting system, you end up with a hell of a lot of verbal and not much else to back up your claims.
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  2. Trueblood is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:38pm


     Style: Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Wing Chun is not a complete system, and, as a striking system, I believe it is far from ideal. I did it for a bit more than two years, and I appreciate some of its tactical aspects and techniques, but its learning curve is much too steep, and some of its fundamental techniques are, though workable, not really the best option as main techniques in a strikers game. And no, I am not talking about a quick fix either. IŽll try to explain.
    I haven't read every post in this thread, so maybe this has been covered already...

    You trained in WC for two years (I'll guess around 2-3 times a week, but that's not really important), and you think you're qualified to critique it? That's laughable, you won't even know what "it" is yet...

    I agree with you that after two years, you should be able to apply a style in a fight situation, at least in some measure. Traditional WC (and Chinese arts in general, from what I understand) bring students along VERY slowly...

    I've been training in kempo for around six years now, with the privilege of also working with 8th and 9th generation (from Yip Man) sifus who have over 30 years of experience. Against "Joe Average" a fight with these gentlemen would last a few seconds. I'm not engaging in idolatry here, the time and effort they have put in to the art has yeilded results. It sounds like your sifu was similar.
  3. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:41pm


     Style: Derek jones

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by waapwoop
    thing is boris, you are dismissing something simply because you don't understand it.

    it has nothing to do with standing still, or rooting. It has a lot to do with balance, and taking other people's balance. If I use my structure in chi sau, I can walk right through people, and i can mover them around, forwards, backwards, sideways. I don't stand still.

    It is not like pushing a car.... there is no pusihing involved... And you lean when you push a car

    It is not like bracing... you don't brace...

    You don't know what it is, so you can't see the benefits.
    where does the force/energy go?

    transmuted by some magical internal convertors into electromagnetic waves and beamed into space? (i guess some is transformed into heat)

    if i push you and you do not move you are braced sufficiently for the forces involved

    that is all.. if the force goes into the ground you are braced

    if there is something else I do not understand it lies outside the realms of what I understand to be reality.

    that is it. We have reached a point of no return the only answer you have is I do not understand yet you do somehow but without the capability to further explain. An extremely weak position to be in.

    if you do not understand it yourself to explain properly why I am wrong... which is a possibility then you MUST concede at least the possibility you are wrong as this explanation for your lack of explanation infers this possibility.

    there is no where to go... nowhere to hide.. end of the road... kaputt.. game over..

    Boris
    london
  4. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:51pm


     Style: wingy chingy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BBD, right on.
    "It does not matter who the master is. It does not matter what the face looks like. The masters are of the Qimen school of qigong/meditation which is related to Zen. The master wears white robes, and the predecessor master wears bright gold robes. The qimen school travels the univers and is not restricted to what paradise they live in. It has many masters" -Serious Harm
  5. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 7:52pm


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PoleFighter
    Seriously: Why is Wing Chun so fucking special? Why don't we ever have this discussion about Shotokan, Hung-gar or whatever? Is it Bruce Lee's or Emin's fault?
    Bruce lee....

    there is a lot of strange stuff in forms in all those styles
    what was all stuff for? was it all pure Bullshido or is there info in that lot that is being missed that is genuinely useful.

    Boris
    london
  6. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 8:01pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    where does the force/energy go?

    transmuted by some magical internal convertors into electromagnetic waves and beamed into space? (i guess some is transformed into heat)

    if i push you and you do not move you are braced sufficiently for the forces involved

    that is all.. if the force goes into the ground you are braced

    if there is something else I do not understand it lies outside the realms of what I understand to be reality.

    that is it. We have reached a point of no return the only answer you have is I do not understand yet you do somehow but without the capability to further explain. An extremely weak position to be in.

    if you do not understand it yourself to explain properly why I am wrong... which is a possibility then you MUST concede at least the possibility you are wrong as this explanation for your lack of explanation infers this possibility.

    there is no where to go... nowhere to hide.. end of the road... kaputt.. game over..

    Boris
    london
    Boris you are very clever but just because you haven't expereinced it, does not mean it is not possible.

    You do NOT have to be stock still and braced to transfer force to the ground. All you need is a limb on the floor.

    See: rugby players who can push through people, being mobile, while still negating their resistance.

    I do not have to know the precise physical calculations of something for it to be able to work. I can't explain it to you any more that I could explain how a mobile phone works but I know they both do.

    If you've never used a mobile phone however you may be skeptical that it works...
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  7. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 8:20pm


     Style: Derek jones

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by supercrap
    Boris you are very clever but just because you haven't expereinced it, does not mean it is not possible.

    You do NOT have to be stock still and braced to transfer force to the ground. All you need is a limb on the floor.

    See: rugby players who can push through people, being mobile, while still negating their resistance.

    I do not have to know the precise physical calculations of something for it to be able to work. I can't explain it to you any more that I could explain how a mobile phone works but I know they both do.

    If you've never used a mobile phone however you may be skeptical that it works...
    ultimately the friction in your feet.... and these effects I have seen and can even replicate some of them. Including making my arms seem heavier without pushing down and other such bullshit.

    Boris
    London
  8. supercrap is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 8:29pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    ultimately the friction in your feet.... and these effects I have seen and can even replicate some of them. Including making my arms seem heavier without pushing down and other such bullshit.

    Boris
    London
    If you want a decent discussion you'll have to be less cryptic...

    Friction in your feet? Don't understand...

    You can make your arms seem heavier - how do you do that?

    I never advocated pushing down. That's the last thing you should do.
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  9. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 8:54pm


     Style: Derek jones

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by supercrap
    If you want a decent discussion you'll have to be less cryptic...

    Friction in your feet? Don't understand...
    theresa host of methods... distributing your weight thru position so than a larger area of shoe soul has a larger than normal pattern of pressure.. getting these magical positions is a matter of standing in a certain way and creating dead weight can these phenomena be replicated if the vertical position is disrupted... by say a fucking great punch to the head... no.. why? because the weight distribution above the feet is disrupted by upper body movement and the "magical" forces sticking you to the deck (friction) no longer exist.. hence why only progressive forces such as pulling and pushing (in rather contrived manners) work as they leave the FUCKING STRUCTURE of how you are standing intact.. what REALLY pisses me off is these parlor tricks have next to ZERO combat value


    You can make your arms seem heavier - how do you do that?
    .
    the muscles that roll your arms in chi sau can be isolated from other back shoulder muscles that normally carry the weight of your arms.. to do this experiment with tensing your muscles in your upper back.. your arm tension will not change and no apparent change in rolling appears but your training partners arms are going to pop out his shoulder sockets in a couple of minutes burning like hell unleashed..

    this miracle chi can be "discovered" by trial and error in about 10mins

    Boris
    London
  10. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2005 9:02pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    theresa host of methods... distributing your weight thru position so than a larger area of shoe soul has a larger than normal pattern of pressure.. getting these magical positions is a matter of standing in a certain way and creating dead weight can these phenomena be replicated if the vertical position is disrupted... by say a fucking great punch to the head... no.. why? because the weight distribution above the feet is disrupted by upper body movement and the "magical" forces sticking you to the deck (friction) no longer exist.. hence why only progressive forces such as pulling and pushing (in rather contrived manners) work as they leave the FUCKING STRUCTURE of how you are standing intact.. what REALLY pisses me off is these parlor tricks have next to ZERO combat value
    I like your style, asshole.

    Agreed - punch in the head will disrupt your magical positioning and 'structure'. What I am glad you said so that I know we aren't speaking completely different languages is the idea of deadweight. Create deadweight by relaxing.

    Do you think it is impossible for these parlour tricks to translate to combat... I don't know, myself. But they did translate to BJJ for me... Able to use the balance, relaxation (Deadweight) etc that I cultivated in wing chun to give me a headstart in BJJ... so it was of value to me... Also the feeling I cultivated allows me to throw a much heavier punch than before.


    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors

    the muscles that roll your arms in chi sau can be isolated from other back shoulder muscles that normally carry the weight of your arms.. to do this experiment with tensing your muscles in your upper back.. your arm tension will not change and no apparent change in rolling appears but your training partners arms are going to pop out his shoulder sockets in a couple of minutes burning like hell unleashed..

    this miracle chi can be "discovered" by trial and error in about 10mins

    Boris
    London
    Again agreed, that by freeing up the weight normally held in your arms by the muscles then the arms feel heavier to the other person.. Take that idea further though, relax the shoulder and back muscles and add their weight (as mass, rather than pushing) to your arms and use your magical structure to support it all... possible?

    My Sifu had the ability to make my arms popping out of their sockets with pain in about 10 minutes... Then I could go and do it to someone who was not training as long as me... Why is that? I have bigger / better use of my muscles or I have more coordination, 'structure' if you will, or a mix of both?
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