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  1. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 8:16am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by grond
    1. Ok, but you don't have that much experience do you? You definately know **** all about wing chun. :)

    2. Well, where was your own circular footwork? If a guy changes angles to out-position you, you flow with him, or do SOMETHING, not just stand there. There's something in wing chun called chi sao that teaches this kind of movement.

    3. I'll read your thread. But think about this. A roundkick works because it hits you at a certain point. If you are too far away, the guy's kick misses. If you move forward and change the distance between ya'll, then most of the force of the kick will be lost. Seeing as how the other guy is kicking you, 90% of the time he won't be able to move to adapt to your movement. He's got one leg up in the air, right? What does 'having a chance' to kick mean exactly? And most martial artists are not intelligent, as the internet proves conclusively. :)

    Hope my rant helps explain what I posted earlier, I'm not trying to be offensive :)
    1. **** you. :sex:

    But seriously, I did WC for two years. It is true that we didn´t spar, but I got a very good idea on how the system works or is supposed to work. So I believe I am entitled to an opinion on the subject. I certainly know how things are supposed to work, I have tried them out in sparring matches against people who had no idea about WC, and many parts of the system failed miserably in the "let´s rock" test.

    2. Excuse me, you were telling me to punch forward against a hook or round punch. I said a punch forward doesn´t work against those punches, because I tried. Punching forward works against jabs, straight punches and crosses - linear, centerline punches. It doesn´t work against hooks, because your fist will not meet the guy´s fist, and you will get creamed. You are changing the subject, we weren´t discussing footwork.

    3. Sorry, but that was an incredibly ignorant statement. And that was also what my sifu used to say about thai roundkicks; only people who have no experience with MT at all would say that. Yes, the kicker will indeed be able to adapt a little - he can kick you with any part of his chin - but, more importantly, a decent striker knows how to use timing in his favour, whether for kicking or punching. And that is why defences such as blocks and parries were developed, because against a skilled fighter you cannot count on having the time to retreat or advance in order to avoid a blow.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  2. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 8:54am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi WCL

    the way WT guys deal with the hook is to punch forward using a step that follows the opponents nose(if you dont use nose to nose you get hit) i.e the step moves your body (offlining) in a way that your nose is following opponents nose)
    The same idea is used against roundhouse kicks
  3. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 8:57am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Daninja, in my opinion that technique counts too much on the possibility that you will have time to step forward. Not to mention a hook is a close distance punch, it´s hard to throw a forward punch in those circunstances (an uppercut yes, something more linear no). And this technique doesn´t seem to take into account the fact that the person throwing the hook will probably still hit you.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  4. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:05am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you can use a shift to get the nose-to nose idea also one hand is doing a tan sao/fook sao aginst the punch and the other arm is punching

    i think i have also seen a movement from wooden dummy where you step back at an angle(move your body/head out of range) with some hand movement and then come back into range with an attack
    Last edited by DANINJA; 1/12/2005 9:08am at .
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:11am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DANINJA
    Hi WCL

    the way WT guys deal with the hook is to punch forward using a step that follows the opponents nose(if you dont use nose to nose you get hit) i.e the step moves your body (offlining) in a way that your nose is following opponents nose)
    The same idea is used against roundhouse kicks
    You miss the MINOR detail that, the hook is a COUNTER punch.
    Its the WC stylist "inflexablity" of delaing with outside attackes, that is called into question, and, unless you have hooks in your arsenal. you won't be able to deal with them as well as someone who has.
    Not to mention the fact that hooks are some of the most powerful punches you can have.
  6. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:20am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DANINJA
    you can use a shift to get the nose-to nose idea also one hand is doing a tan sao/fook sao aginst the punch and the other arm is punching
    Tried that, got creamed, as I said many times here. Look, it is hard enough to defend or to attack. The WC notion that a simultaneous attack/defense combo is the best thing since sliced bread is wrong. You can do that sometimes, yes, but not against someone close to your skill level, and certainly not all the time.

    And again, stepping forward when you are already close enough to get a hook is a bad idea. Certainly that is hard to do.

    Also, what ronin said.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  7. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:24am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dragon claw
    He's talking about structure in general
    WTF is structure....?

    the premise that some ill defined body alignment is the secret of fighting is a giant turd

    waapwood and supercrap are talking bollocks

    what does one mean dropping you shoulder into your elbow... the distance between these two joints is an invariable unless you claim WC develops some magical bone elasticity?

    all this structure bullshit is bullshit not least because there is no real explanation about what it is?

    at the most charitable we could conclude they are talking about total body coordination required to throw a punch... but really it should be no more difficult to explain than swinging a baseball bat or striking a football with the outside of your foot

    there is no fucking mystery

    if i show a total newbie a bill sao it works if i place his arms in the correct position for the demonstration... there is no need to to spend years developing structure?.. it may require some muscle development the same way a new driver develops cramp in his calf from being unused to using the clutch/brake/accelerator but it is pretty functional from the get go...

    the issue becomes one of ability to apply technique rather than honing it in some mysterious manner.. its not as thou there is any useful information at all in these structure discussions.

    in bullshido speak knowledge that speeds up "alive" training is useful.. structure debate is wank

    Boris
    London
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most of the "typical" WC counters to a hook are applied of a Lead Hook.
    Now, hooks are best kept in a combo and as a counter, so how does WC address THAT ?
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:31am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    Most of the "typical" WC counters to a hook are applied of a Lead Hook.
    Now, hooks are best kept in a combo and as a counter, so how does WC address THAT ?
    This question requires smileys.

    :boxing:

    :violent1:

    Ronin is right. My former sifu´s response to a hook was a fook sao. This is all nice and good against a lead hook, but against a close up hook you need a circular defence, which WC lacks.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. Equipoise is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2005 9:32am

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     Style: Chemical Assistance

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with WCL. Not every strike is avoidable. Not everyone does a TKD roundhouse to your head. Try stopping a close shot to your legs by stepping forward. At best you'll just get a knee to the quads. You guys are speaking from no outside sparring experience other than WC. Go fight another style....


    A fucking fok sao against a hook? Jesus christ, that'd be a great way to get smashed. We would do tan sau & strike, gan sau if it's close and to destroy the arm, or my fave on people who like to swing as hard as possible and kwan sau their arm/fist. Great way to break the hand of the person swinging.
    Last edited by Equipoise; 1/12/2005 9:37am at .

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