My current opinions on wing chun

[dragon claw]

if you can not explain it its ****...

Boris
london

Boris,
I don't think he said he can't explain it. It's sounds more like he said he won't bother explaining it.

[waapwoop]

Waap, have a go at explaining shoulder--> elbow. I'm a little rusty, and if it is so valuable and important, it should be something you can explain.

Once, I thought I knew it, but when I really thought about it, I didnt.

I'll explain it for you... i don't really care waht other people thinkl
well, if you have a decent stance.... your shoulder is in its socket. so it rotates in its normal position, not held up by the shoulder muscles. so having this, it relaxes into your elbow, to create sort of a heavy elbow. Now the hard bit is gettign that weight to your wrist. Its kind of like a hose filling up with water.... i can't really explain how to do this part, you pretty much focus your elbow into your wrist.

its pretty hard to do, but when you practice getting it on in chi sau, you find its not hard to get it all the time.

What it gives you is a connection to the ground. so all force coming in is transferred down your arm and then down your body to the ground.
imagine someone holding a pole horizontally, and you walk into it.... it won't hurt.
now put that pole against a wall, and walk into it... now it hurts... its that same connection.

This is what is the basis of structure. I find now that if someone holds their guard quite strong, i just have to move very gently and can easily upset their balance with my structure, if i move faster their balance is thrown apart.

You could test it out with a bong sau.... hold out your bong sau, get someone to push in towards you as hard as they can... if yu can hold the angle in your bong sau without using the muscles in your arm, then you have this connection..... if someone can collapse your bong sau, you don't have it.

of course there is more to it than that, and you need to have a relaxed shoulder joint to roll off incoming force.

anyway, all that might sound hard to achieve, but if it is practiced in chi sau, then after a while it is always there. It makes your punches have substance, and makesit possible to roll off force/strikes.

[Equipoise]

If you don't get basic structure in WC, you should take up flower arranging. Keep your angles past 45 degrees in an obtuse triangle. Therefore your body takes the force rather than your arms. D-d-duh.. :5dunce:

This more helpfull than anything else in Chi sau and some defenses. Tan sau and gan sau in particular. Same goes for the Jams, Your leg has to be out past 45 to jam correctly, otherwise it's like a waving kicking post. The structure should be be learned within the first 6 months, if not, there's no point in continuing.

[waapwoop]

there ya go.. simply, wing chun is not really there for the explaining.... when i see you again supercrap, i'll attempt to show you, or i'll get someone else who can do it better to show you.

i know people won't understand what i said, and won't understand how having your bodyweight in your arms can be useful in a fight. I don't really care.

all this crap you guys are on about... if he kicks, do this.... if he does this step, then you do this step... its all crap... ****, if you can dodge a kick or a punch, you don't need to learn how to fight. if you have time to watch his feet and do alittle dance... you have time to get away. If you can step quicker than he can kick, you should do the 100 metre sptrint int he olympics.

[dragon claw]

There's a difference between saying 'it's crap' and asking for proof or deductive, rational, understandable reasoning.

Try it, it might help you see things clearly as well as others.

I do know what you are saying as well supercrap. I've asked myself those questions and then grabbed some guys from my work to spar against (one MMA and one Shotokan Karate). We had a lot of good sparring sessions since and my Wing Chun works really really well. I was a little bit suprised actually as I had started to grow a bit of doubt prior to it.

[waapwoop]

If you don't get basic structure in WC, you should take flower arranging. Keep your angles past 45 degrees in an obtuse triangle. Therefore your body takes the force rather than your arms. D-d-duh.. :5dunce:

well, thats not exactly it... but you are right, that is BASIC structure.

try it with your partner.... hold out a bong sau... get someone to push in to your body as hard as they can.... if you can hold it without using the muscles in your arm, then i'll concede.... in fact.... unless you are extremely strong, you won't be able to hold it with the muscles in your arm, just because of the positioning of the bong sau, and the fact that your arm isn't stronger than the person pushing ( as they can get their mass behind it)

[waapwoop]

oh, i forgot... you have to say kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiaaai also...

lol

[supercrap]

*flexes wing chun debating muscles*

I'll explain it for you... i don't really care waht other people thinkl
well, if you have a decent stance.... your shoulder is in its socket. so it rotates in its normal position, not held up by the shoulder muscles. so having this, it relaxes into your elbow, to create sort of a heavy elbow..

I used to accept this as an explanation. But what does it actually mean? Why does not tensing the muscles create a heavier feeling in the elbow?

Now the hard bit is gettign that weight to your wrist. Its kind of like a hose filling up with water.... i can't really explain how to do this part, you pretty much focus your elbow into your wrist.

Difficult isn't it? That's why it can't be given as an explanation, because it explains nothing. How does weight move to your wrist? How do you fill up your arms with your body weight? Is this really what it is all about? Do you think your opinion will change in 5 years time and you'll look at this and say 'what the hell was I on about?!?"

its pretty hard to do, but when you practice getting it on in chi sau, you find its not hard to get it all the time.

What it gives you is a connection to the ground. so all force coming in is transferred down your arm and then down your body to the ground.

How do you define a connection to the ground? Why does weight in the arm connect you to the ground?

This is what is the basis of structure. I find now that if someone holds their guard quite strong, i just have to move very gently and can easily upset their balance with my structure, if i move faster their balance is thrown apart.

Can you do this on someone heavier than you? And can it be applied under pressure?

You could test it out with a bong sau.... hold out your bong sau, get someone to push in towards you as hard as they can... if yu can hold the angle in your bong sau without using the muscles in your arm, then you have this connection..... if someone can collapse your bong sau, you don't have it.

Be very careful of pushing. Pushing and having good structure are complete opposites...

Also, muscles are used. You know that right? Come on, we are trying to give wing chun credibility here!!

of course there is more to it than that, and you need to have a relaxed shoulder joint to roll off incoming force.

How do we absorb if we roll everything off? What about the rest of the body, isn't that need to be relaxed too?

anyway, all that might sound hard to achieve, but if it is practiced in chi sau, then after a while it is always there. It makes your punches have substance, and makesit possible to roll off force/strikes.

Would you say you have achieved it?

when i see you again supercrap, i'll attempt to show you

Thanks dude... But I have been shown it many many times by people training for 20 years under Sigung... I have felt it. I just think they are the exceptions, the few people who can actually do it...

[Equipoise]

I know, I did WC for over 3 years. We did drills where someone would try and hammer your centreline with clasped hands into a hammer fist. You had to redirect their force and keep your structure with the tan, bong, and fok sau. Still this is moot in fighting. The particular structure plays very little role in being a successful fighter. I'm never going to throw a bong sau up as a defense.

[Equipoise]

If someone is alot heavier and stronger than you, They can collapse your structure. It's not failsafe. It does work well in using structure to fend off a strong opponent and strong attacks. In order to "absorb" the strikes, the lower body must be in a static tense horse. This horse is great for close striking, trapping and the like, but not for all around fighting.