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  1. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 8:01am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AkiraMusashi
    Boris- Of course you hit while the hands are trapped.
    So trapping is a technique where one hand controls the opponents position while the other hits?

    I suppose if your kicking this one handed aspect may be different..

    trapping as opposed to clinching requires a different range/relative position so controlling your opponent from this 'place" must be rather peculiar as you appear on many occasions to be too far out to have a decent hold and or leverage... moreover you need to be able to hit as well...

    strikes me as rather difficult.. i mean one arm striking implies one side of the body twisting into a strike moving the other side of the body supposedly controlling your opponent away?

    implies that there is some relationship in where you grab, hit and/or stand?

    Boris
    london
  2. wingchunnewbie is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 8:35am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    So trapping is a technique where one hand controls the opponents position while the other hits?

    I suppose if your kicking this one handed aspect may be different..

    trapping as opposed to clinching requires a different range/relative position so controlling your opponent from this 'place" must be rather peculiar as you appear on many occasions to be too far out to have a decent hold and or leverage... moreover you need to be able to hit as well...

    strikes me as rather difficult.. i mean one arm striking implies one side of the body twisting into a strike moving the other side of the body supposedly controlling your opponent away?

    implies that there is some relationship in where you grab, hit and/or stand?

    Boris
    london
    Trapping often involves pinning an opponent's arms against their body with one arm whilst hitting them with the other, as you move into them. It doesn't necessarily involve a lock, hold or 'grabbing' motion. WC practitioners don't generally try and keep the opponent at a distance.
  3. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 8:40am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunnewbie
    Trapping often involves pinning an opponent's arms against their body with one arm whilst hitting them with the other, as you move into them. It doesn't necessarily involve a lock, hold or 'grabbing' motion. WC practitioners don't generally try and keep the opponent at a distance.
    well that introduces the same problem... you need to push forward with the trapping arm which implies the striking side moving away..

    ie limits the potential to hit.. must be a rather specific range of circumstances involved in all this?

    Boris
    london
  4. wingchunnewbie is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 9:40am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not exactly. This is going to be hard to explain without video.

    One of the reaons for practicing chi sao is to get a feel for when it's appropriate to trap (i.e. when it won't require a lot of force or a large movement).

    You don't tend to trap and strike if the trap requires so much force that you have to put your shoulders into it. You only tend to put your shoulders/rest of your body into it when you're trying to force them back into a wall or other obstacle.

    Here are a couple of examples of trapping and striking :-

    1) Your opponent has let his guard down a little, and his elbows are too close to his body. You move forward square on, pressing the crook of one of his elbows with your elbow, and slapping his other elbow out of the way with the palm of your hand, whilst you hit him with your other hand. The power of the punch is driven from the back leg as you step forward, and a small twist of the hip.

    2) Somebody throws a body shot at you. You slip forward, and their arm gets trapped between your nearside arm and your body. You turn your offside hip towards them, pulling their trapped arm across your chest (like an armbar).

    With your free hand you either hit rib/kidney area, or just keep it up for protection whilst gradually cranking up the pressure of your chest against their elbow. If you're heavy relative to them and you turn into their elbow quickly, you might dislocate it or break their arm.

    3) Somebody tries to hit you with a turning elbow, and they miss. You shove their elbow with your palm as it comes past, pushing upwards and forwards as you step into them, striking with your other hand.
    Last edited by wingchunnewbie; 1/09/2005 9:54am at .
  5. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 9:50am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunnewbie
    Not exactly. This is going to be hard to explain without video.

    One of the reaons for practicing chi sao is to get a feel for when it's appropriate to trap (i.e. when it won't require a lot of force or a large movement).

    You don't tend to trap and strike if the trap requires so much force that you have to put your shoulders into it. You only tend to put your shoulders/rest of your body into it when you're trying to force them back into a wall or other obstacle.

    Here are a couple of examples of trapping and striking that get practiced a lot at my WC school, both as drills and in sparring use :-

    1) Your opponent has let his guard down a little, and his elbows are too close to his body.
    You move forward square on, putting one arm over the top of his arms (pressing his


    1) Somebody throws a body shot at you. You slip in so that their arm is between your body and arm.

    1.why cant they push back? what advantage in leverage do you have and why?

    2. you seem to be confirming that trapping is a very particular state of affairs and not a general body of techniques that can be applied in other relative positions aside from square on face to face?

    here is a thought what is it about being square on that allows trapping to occur so often in chi sau? can it be applied outside of chi sau face to face?

    Boris
    London
  6. wingchunnewbie is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 10:17am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mididoctors
    1.why cant they push back? what advantage in leverage do you have and why?

    2. you seem to be confirming that trapping is a very particular state of affairs and not a general body of techniques that can be applied in other relative positions aside from square on face to face?

    here is a thought what is it about being square on that allows trapping to occur so often in chi sau? can it be applied outside of chi sau face to face?

    Boris
    London
    I accidentally submitted the version of the post you're replying to, I've edited it now with some other examples.

    Q. 'why can't they push back'

    A. Because you only do when their arms are in an awkward position where they can't bring much power to bear, (i.e. elbows too close to body)

    Q. you seem to be confirming that trapping is a very particular state of affairs and not a general body of techniques that can be applied in other relative positions aside from square on face to face.

    A. Yes, trapping and striking as I've described are only useful in certain circumstances (i.e. you do it whilst moving towards them at the same time, and you have to be fairly close to start with). When I edited my post, I gave an example where you don't have to be square on (slipping a punch, moving in and doing an arm bar across your chest), but you do still have to be close to them (and move in closer) to pull it off.


    Q. being square on that allows trapping to occur so often in chi sau? can it be applied outside of chi sau face to face?


    A. Being square on allows trapping to occur so often because being square on (facing their centre-line) means that your opponent is in range of both hands.
    WC practitioners mostly like to keep the opponent in range of both hands.
    It can be done when not face to face, e.g. you can be 'square on' facing their centreline and just trap the arm nearest you.
    Last edited by wingchunnewbie; 1/09/2005 10:43am at . Reason: Forgot to answer last quation fully
  7. Nightz is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 10:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Twing Tchun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunnewbie
    3) The weapons that are taught in the system (butterfly knives and long pole) don't really have legal or easy to conceal alternatives that would make the training practical for a modern western country (unlike say, Kali, where small knives and simple sticks are taught).
    Kali/escrima and Wing Chun really gel together. I think at best Wing Chun should be taught with Kali from now on.
  8. wingchunnewbie is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 10:41am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightz
    Kali/escrima and Wing Chun really gel together. I think at best Wing Chun should be taught with Kali from now on.
    It is where I train. Lots of people at my club are into Western Boxing too.
  9. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 1:45pm


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunnewbie
    I accidentally submitted the version of the post you're replying to, I've edited it now with some other examples.

    Q. 'why can't they push back'

    A. Because you only do when their arms are in an awkward position where they can't bring much power to bear, (i.e. elbows too close to body)
    there is something missing in all this... i mean if he steps pinning becomes irrelevant

    OTOH if he push back (instinctive) trapping has less to do with pinning arms as it has to do with keeping his feet in place?

    A. Yes, trapping and striking as I've described are only useful in certain circumstances (i.e. you do it whilst moving towards them at the same time, and you have to be fairly close to start with). When I edited my post, I gave an example where you don't have to be square on (slipping a punch, moving in and doing an arm bar across your chest), but you do still have to be close to them (and move in closer) to pull it off.
    well you have to remain at striking distance or the technique you hope to strike with is ineffective.. ultimately trapping is still restricted to striking distance.. it has to be by definition? how ever you cut it you must not fall short or move in to close..


    A. Being square on allows trapping to occur so often because being square on (facing their centre-line) means that your opponent is in range of both hands.
    WC practitioners mostly like to keep the opponent in range of both hands.
    It can be done when not face to face, e.g. you can be 'square on' facing their centreline and just trap the arm nearest you.
    why is this rare in chi sau? you do not often see one guy out positioned?

    if you blindside your opponent what are the critera for trapping?

    Boris
    london
    Last edited by mididoctors; 1/09/2005 1:48pm at .
  10. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2005 1:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't you practice trapping in your style of wingchun?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

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