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  1. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:10am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    My current opinions on wing chun

    Wing Chun is not a complete system, and, as a striking system, I believe it is far from ideal. I did it for a bit more than two years, and I appreciate some of its tactical aspects and techniques, but its learning curve is much too steep, and some of its fundamental techniques are, though workable, not really the best option as main techniques in a strikers game. And no, I am not talking about a quick fix either. I´ll try to explain.

    Wing Chun, I believe, is not the easiest way to learn how to fight (specifically strike) because, in my humble opinion:

    1) It forces you to develop alternative sources of power generation when you punch, as you are not allowed to use your goddamn shoulders. Yes, my former sifu could generate a huge amount of power, but this usually depended on a stepping movement, which could not be done in all circunstances, or it depended on a very short motion, which cannot work if your arm is not already pretty close to your enemy. Since you do not learn how to use your shoulders when punching, you cannot take advantage of them when you should. Meaning, you don´t learn how to develop power from a distance. Big mistake.

    2) No emphasis on circular strikes, punches or kicks. This flaw is irredeemable. A hook is an excellent fight ender, so is a roundkick. Those techniques should be emphasized in a striking art.

    3) It takes forever to learn how it should actually work. Lots of different kinds of footwork, too much theory, it all became confusing. I DID WING CHUN FOR TWO DAMN YEARS AND I STILL DON´T KNOW HOW IT SHOULD ALL FIT TOGETHER IN A FIGHT. And please, let´s not even start with the lineage wars, and with the "that is not wing chun, THIS is wing chun". I refuse to believe that strange guard I was taught and those artificial stepping motions are the way it is supposed to work.

    4) No sparring. At all. This is both inexcusable and frustrating. This was also the reason I left the kwoon. I was creamed by a MT guy with six months of experience when I started it, because I had no experience in sparring. And I believe I would also get creamed if I had tried to use eye gouges or vicious elbow strikes to the spinal cord, if anyone must know.

    3 and 4 are, of course, derived from my personal experiences, but the two other WC schools I visited here in São Paulo suffer from the same flaws, and many of the internet people I talk to confirm that the same pattern is common in a whole lot of WC schools. So I believe it is fair to say items 3 and 4 describe problems common in Wc, even if YOUR particular school allows lots and lots of free sparring and puts emphasis on physical conditioning, as it should (you lucky bastard).

    Still, I believe items 1 and 2 are even more important, as they describe what I consider to be technical flaws inherent to the WC style of fighting. Too much emphasis on the centerline theory will leave lots of good options out, and this may mean the difference between victory or the floor if you have not practiced high percentage moves throughly and well. Such as hooks and roundkicks.

    Yes, this post reflects only my previous experience with WC and my year of experience with muay thai. I am not an authority on either system, but I believe such criticisms do hold some water. Flame away, o fellow wing chuners, but I would prefer some thoughtful criticism.

    In a nutshell, my current opinion of wing chun is this: it works, but there are easier ways to learn how to fight. And incidentally those ways are also easier to master, so we may conclude that, since the end result of mastering a striking art is the same (an increase in your ass kicking skills), it is smarter to just take the faster path.

    Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that I sound bitter.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  2. xvid is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:20am


     Style: Judohaus (ex beejayjay)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    agreed, both all points, i was in a similar situation to yours.

    If we ever did spar, it'd be light contact sparring, with full on pads. No full contact, no one in the class even knew how to throw a proper hook.

    Anyway thats my 2c.
    Last edited by xvid; 1/07/2005 9:24am at .
  3. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why do you think WC is so popular ?
  4. Onecardshort is offline

    Not remotely funny

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:40am

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     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In a nutshell, my current opinion of wing chun is this: it works, but there are easier ways to learn how to fight. And incidentally those ways are also easier to master, so we may conclude that, since the end result of mastering a striking art is the same (an increase in your ass kicking skills), it is smarter to just take the faster path
    apologies for a thread drift, but this bit + the reference to shoulders/power earlier reminded me of a question that I hoped this forum could provide. Has anyone found any downsides to taking the "faster path" methods to their subsequent training when they become more advanced?

    For example, is there an earlier plateau of striking power you develop with some of the less convoluted styles which mean you have to essentially unlearn your first form to progress further? (and does this question make any bloody sense)
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Onecardshort
    apologies for a thread drift, but this bit + the reference to shoulders/power earlier reminded me of a question that I hoped this forum could provide. Has anyone found any downsides to taking the "faster path" methods to their subsequent training when they become more advanced?

    For example, is there an earlier plateau of striking power you develop with some of the less convoluted styles which mean you have to essentially unlearn your first form to progress further? (and does this question make any bloody sense)

    Start a thread, slacker !
  6. Beneath Contempt is offline

    Cowardly Henchman

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:42am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you going to change your name to Muay Thai Lawyer?
  7. Onecardshort is offline

    Not remotely funny

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 9:44am

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     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Start a thread, slacker !
    I prefer to harmonise and blend with the energy given to me by others
  8. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 10:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Onecardshort
    I prefer to harmonise and blend with the energy given to me by others
    Go harmonise with a kidney pie and stop hijacking my thread, damn englishman.

    And Beneath Contempt, no I am not, I made a poll at the BBC and was basically told to quit whining and pump some iron. In terms less polite than those, of course.

    Well, would anyone like to share their opinions on the technical aspects of wing chun, and whether such aspects constitute an advantage or disadvantage when compared to the possibilities presented by other striking arts? Most notably the power generation methods used to create punching power in wing chun?
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  9. virtual_mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 10:46am

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     Style: 7 Star

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Wing Chun is a good fighting system for close quater fighting. For example lets say you're in a closet and someone starts to mess with you. Wing Chun is the perfect system for this situation.
  10. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2005 11:01am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by virtual_mantis
    I think Wing Chun is a good fighting system for close quater fighting. For example lets say you're in a closet and someone starts to mess with you. Wing Chun is the perfect system for this situation.
    The trapping skills are indeed a must if you are in clinch range and if you don´t want to/can´t grapple, I do use them sometimes when I spar. Such skills are worth having, yes.

    But if you want to learn close quarters striking, you should also put lots of emphasis on elbows and knees, something wing chun schools do not usually do.

    That´s actually a big problem, even though I cannot say if it is common in other wing chun schools (I suspect it is, considering the videos I saw here): my sifu used to say "oh, if that happens strike with the elbow and/or with the knee". Great idea, but then we should get the pads and actually PRACTICE those knee and elbow strikes a lot, like MT guys do, and we should not hope we will know how to use those weapons with power and precision when the need arises.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
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