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  1. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 4:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I had the pleasure of working out with Christian/Wastrel last night. Christian has been taking BJJ for several months now and was kind enough to work out with me and teach some of the basic precepts of the art.

    I've never had any formal wrestling experience and the art I study is focused on standup work. Essentially the only ground fighting experience I've got has been getting beaten on by my older brother (picture lots of cursing, choking, head butting and biting) some horsing around with friends and one multiple person fight where I took one guy down and got kicked in the head for my troubles (sounds like an idiot move but I thought I'd already neutralized everyone besides the guy I took down).

    With this lack of experience I was really looking forward to working out with someone with legit experience, and I wasn't disappointed. Christian did a great job of explaining the basic positions, strengths and weakness of each and we started working on transitions from positions and some simple submissions. It was a good learning experience and one that I look forward to continuing. I also certainly saw where bjj got its reputation for efficacy.

    HOWEVER, one thing that I noticed is that much of what was done and is considered good technique falls into what I would consider common martial sense. This was expressed a couple of times when Christian commented on things I’d naturally done “right” as in my leg position on a sweep from guard (probably this is actually the only example of something I did well). I’m by no means much of a martial artist at this point, I think I’d make a better coach than fighter as I can usually see what someone is doing wrong, what the should do and what techniques should be used in certain situation, unfortunately my own execution of these things is...well lacking. Much of the things that we do in my own school were on a certain level expressed in ground fighting. In our standup maintaining your “center” is emphasized to avoid being easily taken down and to allow quick transition to multiple techniques. I saw this expressed in the emphasis of where to grip for your guard with your legs and in how to try and get into certain positions. Essentially using leverage and position instead of dependency on strength, this is an idea that just makes sense, and should be done regardless of your strength relative to your opponent. Similarly many submissions (bars and the like) work off the same premises seen in many aikido type techniques that we do in my school.

    Before some of you take umbrage to this let me elaborate. I am by no means saying I had any real level of proficiency, what I am saying is what I’ve said before, there are only so many ways in which it makes sense to move, and many of these translate between the ground and standup and are expressed independently in many different arts.

    This goes to a topic Christian and I discussed to a fair extent: the homogenization of techniques between arts. All martial arts are (or should be fluid) and undergoing a continual refinements and this is an idea that indeed predates JKD as its embodied in competition. As time goes on those arts that have not entrenched themselves in cultural/ideological preservation or dogmatic adherence to techniques will begin expressing themselves in very similar ways. This can be seen in those karate and the like schools now incorporating ground fighting and using chambered punches as primarily teaching devices.

    It was a great experience and one I look forward to continuing. Down the road I expect I may pursue formal training in some sort of submission wrestling (whether or not that will be bjj will likely depend on locale and cost). I think a real refinement in technique has been seen in this arena.

    One other interesting observation about the whole experience was that the mistakes I make in my formal training were the same ones I made trying to ground fight.

    1. I over commit: I ended up diving on my attempts at shooting.
    2. I rely on strength too much as opposed to technical proficiency.

    Hopefully working on them in both arenas will help me to resolve them.




    The essence of this whole post: The more things change the more they become the same.
  2. Blad3 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 4:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Christian commented on things I’d naturally done “right” as in my leg position on a sweep from guard (probably this is actually the only example of something I did well).
    A lot if not all of the moves are nautral, and they just work "right"... I noticed that a friend of mine countering nautrally (although how you;re supposed to), but only to a certain extent.

    Good to see you enjoyed your experince + you have the same problems I (still) do (the diving in): But isn't tit so many more times difficuly when the person actually knows you're shooting, knows how to counter the move etc...?
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  3. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 4:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only good thing about the diving would be that my fat ass would probably give me enough momentum to bowl over most folks. However, that could be painful since unlike IGBJJ's I don't wear kneepads throughout the day.




    **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**
  4. PizDoff is offline

    .

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 5:25pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "one multiple person fight where I took one guy down and got kicked in the head for my troubles (sounds like an idiot move but I thought I'd already neutralized everyone besides the guy I took down)."

    neutralized eh? if they can move, they aren't neutralized

    " I rely on strength too much as opposed to technical proficiency."
    if you mean ground fighting, well you don't have much instruction so what do you expect, put at least you recognise that

    about countering-well not everyone has common sense

    --

    There are only three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.
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  5. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 5:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The strength reliance comes into play in my stand up as well and particularly in grab defense (a mainstay of hapkido).

    As far as the multiple person thing, well I didn't really know what I was doing, I'd never had any sort of traing and thought throwing a guy into an arcade game would incapacitate a guy at least long enough to let me work on someone else. Live and learn.

    Luckily their hearts weren't really in it (otherwise I'm sure I'd have been toast), I think they didn't expect me to go berserk over a couple of bucks. As a side note one thing I did differently was when they (5) were leaving now I wouldn't walk after them talking ****.




    **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**
  6. GRECO is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 7:52pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    <HOWEVER, one thing that I noticed is that much of what was done and is considered good technique falls into what I would consider common martial sense.>

    Exactly! Thats Why it's good Tehnique.
  7. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 8:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    About the strength thing, Dochter is STRONG. I had him practicing a guard pass, and he grasped the fundamentals really quickly. Things would have been much harder if I'd been trying for submissions instead of just trying to hold the guard, but he did really well. He's a quicker student than some of the guys I work with.
    One thing I noticed about myself is that I kept dropping my head because I think I was afraid he was going to start hitting it by instinct. That really fucked me up a few times. One time I had solid side control and the mats that we pushed together slipped apart, fucked it all up. I also noticed for the first time how slow the shot is on a really thick mat. It was hard to demonstrate how fast a good shot (or my mediocre one) really is. Dochter is a good example of someone with a mind open to new possibilities.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

    Edited by - The Wastrel on February 12 2003 19:12:01
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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