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  1. erik-the-red is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 9:55pm


     Style: TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Question on kesa-gatame (judo)

    I borrowed a copy of the second volume of Judo in Action, by Kazuzo Kudo. The second volume covers grappling techniques.

    The first technique demonstrated is the kesa-gatame, or scarf hold.

    The steps for pinning take care of the opponent's right arm, but don't seem to account for the opponent's left arm. What if my opponent is just flailing at me with his left arm? How can I modify this technique to "take care" of the opponent's left arm?

    Thanks in advance.
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 10:02pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You mean the arm that's not caught in the hold, right? (You can do a Kesa from either side).

    You shouldn't have to worry too much about the other arm... even if you have to eat a few punches they're not going to have enough leverage behind them to do anything other than annoy you while you crank the other arm. To paraphrase my instructor: if you can't get a submission from the kesa, you're retarded.

    The experts will chime in on this though. Omega?
  3. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 10:09pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    His left arm is not really that useful from that position, but you could fold his right arm over his face and go to kata gatame, which I feel is a more uncomfortable hold. It doesn't let the guy take your back, but you don't have the easy leg-assited arm/shoulder locks.
  4. AFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 10:35pm

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     Style: judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the Kesa Gatame is well executed than you shouldn't need to worry about the other arm too much. squeeze him tightly by putting the weight of your upper-body against his lower ribcage from the side.Good head and neck control. Hold his other arm tightly. That' ll make him short of breath and he tap if done correctly.
    I don't think his punches are much to worry about, cause he cannot create much power from the side. f you however fight somebody who puts his free hand into your face ( or even tries to eye gauge you ...) than changing into Kata Gatame is a very good option.
    Not only do you hold him more tightly and can use your shoulder to choke him - you head/face is now protected by his orm arm and he shouldn't be able to reach it. He can use the arm only to tap ...

    It's quite important that all hold downs require you to be alert and aware of your opponents movements. It's not a case of getting into a position and holding it until the fight is over. You need to be able to react to his movements, change your position or the way you use your body weight and your arms.Changing from one hold down into the next, or into a armbar or choke is often possible due to his mistakes.
  5. Strong Machine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 10:38pm

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     Style: Pro-Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you INSIST on "modifying" it, then the modified scarfhold a seems the way to go.
    Which means don't wrap his neck,wrap under his far arm so you are across his chest.
    But if you got scarfhold the far arm really isn't a factor.Especially in Judo, but even in MMA whats he gonna do? Cept maybe break his fingers punching the back of your head.
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 11:06pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The far arm is actually a big part of at least one Judo escape (grab the belt, shrimp, lift), so I can see why he would be concerned about it.
  7. Strong Machine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 11:14pm

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     Style: Pro-Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course.It also is used in pushing the neck away to get the leg over, in going palm to palm for a roll and a whole slew of other escapes.
    But you really can't control his far arm(or even should be aiming to) you should focus on staying in balance,keeping his other arm from getting to the mat and crushing your weight into him as you fold him up 'til he wishes you'd just tap him and be done with it.
  8. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 11:17pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I bow to your superior grappling knowledge, and will let the pros handle the rest of this thread.
  9. AFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2005 11:55pm

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     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    just to clarify - I was referring to the concern of getting punched by the far arm, not to the fact that he can use the arm to get out of the hold down with this arm.

    Otherwise you are correct Shumagorath.

    When teaching kids judo I get asked very often:
    And what if he does something else ?
    The simple answer is - than you have to do something else.
    So if he grabs your belt and tries to roll you over you have to defend your position, by changing your weight, head position arm position etc.
    Or squeeze harder
  10. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 8:29am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wouldn't be too concerened about getting hit with the free hand.
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