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  1. TKDist is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 12:37pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm new to the site and have been lurking around a bit. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a definition of "mcdojo" yet. I'm guessing from what I've read that a McDojo is a school that teaches "bullshido," useless techniques, or boasts about being the end all be all in martial arts training.

    What about "business aspect" of MA schools???..."Bullshido" or Not?
    Here is what I'm aiming at...
    I think most of us have watched a some less than stellar students advance through the belt ranks. You know, those people who just want the belt, but aren't interested in putting in the work to actually learn the skills for each rank. You see them doing sloppy stances and forms and still kicking at their knee level even though they've got an intermediate or advanced belt tied around their waist. This phenom always bugged me a bit. I've spoken to a couple of instructors/school owners about it. Their frank answer was that "it's a business" and like all businesses schools need constant revenue to sustain the them so...sometimes the school needs to let a few subpar students advance to order to keep the doors open for those who really want to learn.

    What are your thoughts? Bullshido or not? Is this a Mcdojo practice?

    Edited by - TKDist on February 12 2003 11:41:51
  2. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 12:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes

    >>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  3. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 12:43pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's nothing wrong with commercially successful martial arts schools. The problem comes in when pure, irrational garbage is being sold to the students as if it will allow them to perform superhuman feats and work 100% in dangerous situations. It would actually be better in many cases for someone not to have the false sense of security given by these schools, so they would be more likely to chose flight instead of fight in a bad situation.

    I'll let everyone else chime in with their opinions on this. There's nothing wrong with making money doing what you love. It's just the point where making money becomes the thing you love, and the martial art secondary that a school's integrity comes into question.
  4. TKDist is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 12:55pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just wanted to hear some other opinions on the business aspect of the MA.
    Personally...I fault the student not the school.
    Even if a student lacks athleticism, he/she should still be aiming for measured improvement between each rank. I'll never understand the people who rush through the ranks. What's the point? What have they accomplished? Nothing. They've got a belt around their waist that symbolizes knowledges of skills they'll never have. Might as well just go out and buy the belt, why bother showing up at all?

    Just my 2 cents :p
  5. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 1:24pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I feel fortunate in this regard. Though the organization I train in has been labeled a McDojo, nothing could be further from the truth at the school where I train. Our instructors are on the ball, and our head instructor is cross trained in more than one style.

    Also, at our school, they emphasize ground fighting and joint locks. This is in addition to our standard classes, and at a bit of an extra fee, but it is well worth the time and money.


    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Edited by - Bolverk on February 12 2003 12:25:04
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  6. Omen Stone is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 2:05pm


     Style: non

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hmm interesting opinions that arn't

    "BJJ is teh bestt it OWNS ALL!, all other styless are weak and all other schools buts school s that don't teach bjj are mcdojo's! KIAII MONKEY STANCE BOU SOUNG BIAAATCH"

    But I'll wait, for some one to jump on top of karate, tkd, or any other style that doesn't win in the ufc.

    "A California man has been taken to court for stalking Anna Nicole Smith. The man has been charged with invasion of privacy, illegal trespassing, and having really bad taste."-Conan
  7. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 2:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You cant always blame the students, most dont really understand if they're improving or not. Its the instructors who should be saying "hold on there, you're not good enough for your next belt".

    I would say ,IMHO, two main things make a mcdojo. There are others but they are additional.
    First is when the Art becomes secondary to the Business. This is wrong on so many levels.

    Second, I would say if someone were teaching "self defense moves" that have no chance in hell of ever working. This is where TKD sometimes takes heat. TKD is fine for a sport, some ppl like to compete, thats not a prob. The problem is when they are told the same techniques they use in the sport will work in real-life. This is a major problem!!

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi
  8. matzahbal is offline
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    Fig Newtons are fruit and cake, suckah.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Buffalo Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You cant always blame the students, most dont really understand if they're improving or not. Its the instructors who should be saying "hold on there, you're not good enough for your next belt".
    I totally agree, but also left out are the schools that include belt testing as a source of revenue. Alot of people would argue "we should be payed for our time", which I totally agree with, but when a school charges a student $30+ for a yellow belt (or any early belt) test where all they have to know is like 2 or 3 techniques and maybe a form, and then to have them do it for a hour is just a scam.

    Also is the changing of the art of the to make profit without really changing anything. I've seen this alot where a school will start being everywhere and everything. If you walk into a school and ask them "do you guys train in ____" and they say "Sure" and show you 2 or 3 techniques you could of picked up from a book without any real explanation other than the names of the movements in the technique, that's bad.

    Also don't forget changing the history around to fit what scheme they have going, that's not good either ;)

    "But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals
    Apu: "Oh! You have just been Apu'd!"
  9. Fatality Dragon is offline

    Reading FD cause cancer

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 3:04pm


     Style: Muay Thai and boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Matzahbal, do you know anything about this Shotokan Karate school on Nellis? It cost only 20 dollars a month and it is close to my house... By the way where is your WC school? I may will stop by to take a look and may even spar some time :-)

    "I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."
    I would pick bag work over masturbating, fighting over sex, and KOing someone over having a orgasm!
  10. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2003 3:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Personally...I fault the student not the school.
    Even if a student lacks athleticism, he/she should still be aiming for measured improvement between each rank. I'll never understand the people who rush through the ranks. What's the point? What have they accomplished? Nothing. They've got a belt around their waist that symbolizes knowledges of skills they'll never have. Might as well just go out and buy the belt, why bother showing up at all?
    Bah...while I agree that the students are at fault for lack of trying it is the instructor who is at fault for promoting them before their ready. If a student doesn't work hard or at least earnestly they shouldn't be promoted and they should probably not be encouraged to stay.

    And in your scenario they did just go out and buy the belt, and it was the instructor who sold it to them.

    While you may not be quite as monetarily succesful there should be an honorable place between McDojo and training on an individual basis.




    **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**
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