Thread: Tangled Web of VTGs
12/28/2004 3:15pm, #1
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- So Cal
Tangled Web of VTGs
You know Phat Phil and Dipshit Don are not the only VTGs that are prominent on the internet. If you surf the links on their websites and look into their forums (or fora as they call them…btw “fora” is not in the MS word dictionary) you’ll find a host of other VTGs and dictatorial cyber-nazi moderators that are legends in their own minds. It becomes a tangled web of fraud and misrepresentation.
They all share connections, through the web and in personality types:
Dan Webre… well what can I say. He’s full of crap no matter how you look at it.
Phil Elmore… well that’s an old topic, but for the other Noobs: He’s a brown belt in a style that he “co-founded” (just how does that happen?) and the “publisher” of an on line magazine that promotes all things Phil. His lack of qualifications and credentials is absolutely appalling.
Don Rearic is apparently Phat Phil’s role model. He portrays himself as an expert on combatives and self defense, but as far as anybody knows, doesn’t train in anything. He does however maintain connections with high profile RBSD and martial arts types like Kelly Worden and James Keating.
Tony Manifold, a VTG who has trained in various arts for ten years, has never advanced beyond a green belt and has supposedly fought in MMA matches but doesn’t know for sure what his record is. He is on line offering “reasonably priced” seminars in combatives. He also posts on several on line forums such as Martial Talk, Pax Baculum and the World Modern Arnis Coalition Forum to name but a few.
Hold on to your hats for what follows guys… I’m going to raise a few eyebrows now.
Kelly Worden is an apparently respected exponent of the Filipino Martial Arts who “maintains long term strong relationships” with other big name martial artists, and runs a prolific program in the Pacific Northwest. It is not his skills of his years of experience that is the issue here. The issue here is that he claims to have been the driving force behind the modern edged weapon renaissance when men like Leo Gaje and Dan Inosanto brought the Filipino blade to the forefront many years before. Kelly jumps up and down on his platform that he is the first and foremost knife authority, and everybody else besides Jim Keating is riding his coattails and copying his material. My question is: Whose material did he copy with his Renegade JKD, Connecting the Systems and Art with in Your Art approach? Hmmm…
Kelly was also “recognized” by one of the FMA groups in the Philippines as the Grandmaster of Natural Spirit Arnis, but has never set foot on Philippine soil, can’t pronounce many of the traditional Filipino terms properly (or the names of many of his Filipino friends) and has virtually no idea about the Filipino culture; martial or otherwise. It sounds to me like somebody greased a few palms... pay the fee and get the title. Still he has the nerve to say that his credentials are credible and everyone who might be in competition with him is a fraud.
Furthermore, Kelly has a habit of flaming, suspending and banning people from his World Modern Arnis Coalition forum and deleting their posts when he doesn’t like somebody has to say. I guess when he was a little boy, he would just take his ball and go home if the other kids didn’t play the right way... his way.
Don Rearic and Phil Elmore have both been featured guests on his radio show.
You will also find links to Sammy Franco, Ron Hood (of PhonyVeterans.com infamy) and everybody’s favorite Self Defense Forums at this site. I wonder how strong his long term relationships are with these two frauds.
The man has skills, but is a bullshit artist just the same.
James Keating is a great exponent of the blade hands down. However, like Kelly Worden, he has personality issues. He is on record as saying that he and Kelly pioneered the modern edged weapon movement, and that everyone else is copying their material. Neither Keating nor Worden created the knife work of the FMA, but are both reluctant come out and say that, as they are the "innovators" that started it all :tongue6: . Here’s a rare quote from an interview at http://www.realfighting.com/1102/index.html
I took Pekiti-tiersa years ago, I liked it; it's a very fast style, but it's got a lot of crap in it too.
Laughter...this is what I've done; I've taken Pekiti-tiersa and modified it, I agree with you, so you don't have to do a lot of the crap. I basically want the high-speed effectiveness and that's what we've got. So again in my opinion, as far as self-defense, close quarter, against any situation, the reverse grip is one of the best. But if we're talking about two men with knives squaring off amongst each other, oh hell no, get your knife out of reverse grip, get into regular grip, it is not a knife fighting method.
I think they mean Pekiti Tirsia…
Back in the early 90’s none of his advertising said that ComTech knife was diluted PTK. Who’s the rip-off artist now? Just who is copying whom without giving credit where it is due? He was never forthcoming as to were his material had come from other than his own “research”.
Have you guys ever gone to Keating’s web site? It makes Ki Sanctuary look almost normal.
Well… I could go on, but this has already gotten way too long.
12/28/2004 4:10pm, #2
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- Jun 2004
12/28/2004 4:25pm, #3
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- San Angelo, TX
More hot n00b on n00b action please!
Not bad."Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
-My three year old trash talking to me
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12/28/2004 8:40pm, #4
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Very well done. I was familiar with Keaton and Worden, but not about their ridiculus claims. It's pretty sad when the try to take credit for material that they obviously had to have learned somewhere themselves.
12/28/2004 10:54pm, #5
FWIW, I've spoken to Jim Keating on the phone many times, and have communicated over email for a few years.
The "watered down pekiti-tirsia" comment was not intended to cover the whole Comtech knife program. It refers to his "drawpoint" methods, which use a small fixed blade or folder in reverse grip at very close range with fast "picklike" stabs directed at the face/eyes/incoming limbs, etc.
The rest of the system is a mix of Asian methods. There's also a Bowie method, which looks like sabre fencing with some FMA mixed in.
From what I've experienced, Jim is really a very nice guy. Very generous and willing to listen, and at times, very eccentric. And no, I'm not a blind Keating/Worden nutrider, I just like the material, and it works for me.
But that's just one asshole's opinion...
12/28/2004 10:58pm, #6
And as far as Jim making far out claims of inventing things, well, he never came across that way when I talked to him. If he does elsewhere, well, that's on him. Maybe popularized it, but not invented.
12/29/2004 12:35am, #7
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- Oct 2004
- So Cal
Check out his July 24 interview with Kelly Worden and Don Rearic at http://www.kellyworden.homestead.com/OnTheEdge.html
They both claim that they started it all and everyone else is riding their wave.
Check out the interview with SouthNarc as well:
"On The Edge" Radio with Kelly Worden talks with Craig Douglas "AKA" SouthNarc . Douglas is a former undercover cop who has developed a system of personal protection that has proven to function during extreme close quarter conflicts utilizing small fixed blade knives deployed from practical acquisition concealment positions. His website is at www.shivworks.com. 53 min. (9-25-2004)
It turns out that his "system of personal protection" that he developed is also diluted Pekiti Tirsia. Just how could someone develop a system that already exists as part of another system? :icon_scra Ah... the tangled web gets bigger.
Last edited by Blue Collar; 12/29/2004 12:53am at .
12/29/2004 11:53am, #8
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- Oct 2004
- So Cal
the tangled web gets bigger...
I neglected to include the "Master of Defense" in my opening statements. This individual's name is Paul Janulis. As mentioned in a thread devote especially to him, he's another VTG that fancies himself to be some sort of modern martial arts master with connections to the special operations community. Refer to http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...Master+Defense
The bravest if internet warriors, he posts in various internet forums as "Tulisan", and like the numerous VTGs he keeps company with, tries to pass himself off as a combatives expert of sorts. He's a nut rider for both Kelly Worden and another self-styled VTG known as Tim Hartman.
Interesting enough; in nature janulis is a species of sea slug. No doubt that the MoD lives up to his namesake…a bottom feeder.
Tim Hartman seems to be a very slick individual. After reading numerous threads on Martial Talk (he posts as Datu Puti -- "White Cheiftan") and looking at his web pages, I feel that he and his organization (the World Modern Arnis Alliance) are more than worthy of inclusion as McDojo Bullshit Artists. This also includes much of the staff of Martial Talk. One of his students is the creator and aministrator of that forum, and from what I have seen if you don't agree with Dati Puti, you're flamed until you either don't come back or they suspend/ban you from the forum. Many of the moderators at Martial Talk appear to be Hartman nut riders.
Interestingly enough, Janulis, Hartman and his followers went after a number of people who were sharing a Martial Talk log-in. They flamed who they believed was responsible, and banned them. A year or so later, Hartman was exposed for having dual accounts (a breech of Martial Talk policy) and the staff at Martial Talk were “unable to verify” if it was indeed Hartman breaking his own rules.
It is very entertaining to read people taking this group to task in their own forum and see the moderators jump in with the “keep it respectful or else” threats. Phat Phil posts at Martial Talk as well.
One thing that stands out is Hartman's promotion to 7th degree blackbelt. It appears that he was voted into 7th degree by a board of his own students. Janulis was also part of that. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...ht=Tim+Hartman
What's up with that?
Some other interesting info: http://wmarnis.com/resume.html
Supposedly he founded a knife fighting system called Mano y Daga, but Mano y Daga is a phase of Pekiti Tirsia training. Once again, somebody “created” something that already existed as part of an established system. At least he doesn’t claim to be an instructor to some super secret spec-ops types, but wait… he’s certified in US and British military combatives. Holy cow!!! Where’s my shovel and hip waders???
The photo page is interesting too. I think that Hartman should open a Jenny Craig outlet at his school, he’d make a killing. They all appear to eat quite well.
12/29/2004 1:20pm, #9
Originally Posted by SGT Fitts______
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12/29/2004 6:27pm, #10
He has a 5 tape series on it. They're really pricey nowadays, though.
Tape 1-- Explores cut/thrust basics and applications, as well as the design of Keating's own duelling knife made by Bob Dozier. Blends it with FMA partway through.
Tape 2-- 7 part offensive/defensive flows, very sabre. Applications thereof.
Tape 3-- Covers using the "back cut" with the sharpened back edge of the Bowie. Quick, nasty ripping stroke.
Tape 4-- Throwing the Bowie (mainly for fun/goofing around). Very close range, no spin to the throw.
Tape 5-- Double knife sets. Use the Bowie/toothpick, 2 Bowies, Bowie/tomahawk...well, you get the idea. Openly blends Bowie with FMA.
Overall, it's cool material, and a little different from the norm. For the basics, you could just pick up a copy of Styers' "Cold Steel" and study the knife portion. That was one of the sources Jim consulted, after all.