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View Poll Results: How do you pass the guard?

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  • From standing.

    25 31.65%
  • From the knees.

    54 68.35%
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  1. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 6:19pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sup Aes

    Howdy.

    Not much I can offer to this thread other than personal preference. It seems like almost everything has been convered to some degree or other.

    I have a couple of passes from standing and a couple from the knees. I am reluctant to use standing passes in no-gi training because I cannot control the legs enough, and my opponents ability to get to all 4's seems multiplied. But during Gi training when I can control the pants I am more apt to use standing passes.

    That being said I probably use 80% kneeling passes due to my own personal grappling STYLE. That style is to reduce ANY space and leave no openings. It seems that allowing the the space of standing passes does not afford me the opportunity to control my opponent. I like to make them carry my weight, feel twisted and uncomfortable to such a degree that they WANT to give me the pass.

    My kneeling passes usually start with a knee in the middle. I prefer this position for a number of reasons.

    1) I use the knee as a 'shield'. With my knee up the middle they cannot triangle or armlock me. I remove much of my opponents bottom game. Now I concentrate more on being swept because my base is not as strong with a knee up. This also plays into my strategy. I know they are going to sweep, usually to the weak side, and it sets up some passes.

    2) The knee up doesnt allow them to close the guard again.

    3) That knee is fundamental in pinning the hips to the ground. Whichever direction I choose to pass the shin will pin him down. IMHO the hips are the center of all movement. Reduce or remove them as a mitigating factor and you can control your opponent easier.

    4) Lets face it. Its uncomfortable as all hell. The threat of having someone run over your nuts, even with a cup on makes people using their guard go more on defense than offense.

    My standing passes rely more on speed and athleticism than pure technique. I have to be ready to take the back, or drop down and sprawl, possibly drive my head into their chest to keep their back on the ground, or simply step out to avoid their sweep attempts.

    There is one really good thing about standing passes. They allow a larger variety of leg submissions. Kneebars, footlocks, anklelocks, etc are all MUCH easier when you have some distance. But since my game is predicated on position over submission this advantage is somewhat nullified. I can see however that others who prefer submission to position using standing passes more frequently.

    Blah - I don't have much else to offer. Just thought I would stop in to say hey to Aesopian.
  2. Mouthfire is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 7:48pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good info
  3. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 7:57pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I usually begin by pushing away from my opponent. If his ankles don't open, I'll start to slowly grind him with my elbow. In contrast to what the brazillian with the funny english says, I don't find that I use much strength or energy at all.

    After that, I'll sometimes try to roll them up into a little ball and keep them there for a while (because it feeds my ego and breaks a little of their spirit) and then start to walk around them. Other times I separate their ankles and either (1) hold down their open leg with my knee and pass, (2) go straight for the mount or (3) throw their legs to one side and pass. I've had great success with this against other four month old white belts. I have no idea how well it works against someone more experienced because deep down I know they give me everything I want untill they get an opportunity to practice the escape they had decided on a week earlier. Sigh... (I guess that's the problem with going to a school where everyone is either a total noob or a blue belt).

    So uhm.. I don't really have a preference. I seem to stand more than I kneel though.

    And yeah, I'm guilty in the baiting, and I know it only works against other noobs. Perhaps I should stop doing that.
    Last edited by PoleFighter; 1/05/2005 7:59pm at .
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  4. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 10:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great to see you here, yrkoon9! I think you'll find Bullshido has fewer MMA fanboys wandering around asking stupid questions and giving stupid advice than is the norm at Sherdog.

    Or at least most of us can spell while we do it.

    To PoleFighter:

    I didn't say the elbow-to-thigh bitch move was necessarily ineffective or relied on strength, I just said it is a bitch move. I'm sure it works pretty well at white and probably blue belt, but I don't see it being successful as you get higher. Hell, it doesn't work against ME anymore, and I'm just a white belt. Maybe it's my personal preference, but I prefer leverage to pain, and just hoping someone opens their guard because you're digging into their thighs is bitchtastic. Someone opening their guard because your entire body is an working as an irresistable force of leverage, weight and momentum, now that's something wonderful.
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2005 10:58pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, yrkoon, I managed to have a civilized gi and no-gi thread and poll:

    http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19817

    I have never this topic discussed on Sherdog with degenerating into a baby smothering cockfest.
  6. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2005 2:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    I didn't say the elbow-to-thigh bitch move was necessarily ineffective or relied on strength, I just said it is a bitch move. I'm sure it works pretty well at white and probably blue belt, but I don't see it being successful as you get higher. Hell, it doesn't work against ME anymore, and I'm just a white belt. Maybe it's my personal preference, but I prefer leverage to pain, and just hoping someone opens their guard because you're digging into their thighs is bitchtastic. Someone opening their guard because your entire body is an working as an irresistable force of leverage, weight and momentum, now that's something wonderful.
    A bitch move? Interesting Aesopian and our first BJJ quasi-disagreement. I say quasi because I donít use the elbows as the primary means of breaking the legs but they are tight to the opponentís thighs and they stay tight. (So there is some pain involved). Hereís how it breaks down:

    Saulo says to keep the arms bent and tight to his opponent (1:30). Thatís what I do too but both my elbows are in the same position. So thatís not different.

    Saulo says that you donít need to push with the knuckles into the belly/chest but he IS doing that somewhat. Watch it again (4:10). Maybe he forgets he does it? If there was nothing there his opponent could sit up on him. Remember, this is showing a move without a resisting opponent. I donít apply tons of pressure with my knuckles because my arms are bent (like his) but there has to be some pressure or he will come up on you every time.

    Saulo says knee in the middle is unbalanced. Thatís because the way heís demonstrating it is leaving the opposite knee in the same place. Of course youíre off balance this way! The other knee needs to either go out to the side keeping your base wide or your foot goes up just like he does (2:35). So this point is mute. I do the same thing except the knee goes in the butt, (my whole body shifts to one side to put it there) and the leg goes up to the side. Space is created and this is how the legs are broken. It has to do with angle but my elbows are still pinned to his thighs and as I turn to the side they slide to my thighs and my arms are no longer in. Heís right about this but then he does some stuff after that will get you arm barred, triangle choked or caught in the omo plata (sp).

    What do I mean? Look at the 4:50 point in the video. His arm is still inÖ he says that you are safe blah blah blah but heís ripe for the omo plata at exactly 4:50. Not only that but during that whole scenario heís ripe for the triangle. If you keep your hips on the ground like this guy does you canít get shite, but when you extend yourself (horse kick/donkey kick) you are all over him. Again, this video is static in nature because the opponent isnít resisting so I give him credit and no doubt he could defend any feeble attempt of mine but donít take all of this as gold.

    Point is that every instructor is different. If having the elbows in the thighs is a bitch move then all the Machadoís, a good portion of the Gracies etc are all bitches for teaching it. I think what Iím doing is different than what your used to seeing because I donít rely on pain but rather leverage but the elbows are still a part. Hell, when people use the elbows on me without the proper leverage I could take the pain too. I donít though because I donít play a closed guard. Thatís for white belts ;-)

    You said
    I'm sure it works pretty well at white and probably blue belt, but I don't see it being successful as you get higher. Hell, it doesn't work against ME anymore, and I'm just a white belt
    Iíd disagree strongly. Maybe the way you are talking about but the way Iím talking about is one of the safest ways to pass against better opponents. If I tried what Saulo was doing Iíd get jacked for sure. Iíd say the opposite is true. I can leave an arm in against whites and blues but itís unsuccessful as you get higher. For the record, I have much respect for Saulo but heís one of many black belts. This strikes me as more old school than new school.

    :icon_bigg
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  7. PoleFighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2005 4:28am


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    To PoleFighter:

    I didn't say the elbow-to-thigh bitch move was necessarily ineffective or relied on strength, I just said it is a bitch move. I'm sure it works pretty well at white and probably blue belt, but I don't see it being successful as you get higher. Hell, it doesn't work against ME anymore, and I'm just a white belt. Maybe it's my personal preference, but I prefer leverage to pain, and just hoping someone opens their guard because you're digging into their thighs is bitchtastic. Someone opening their guard because your entire body is an working as an irresistable force of leverage, weight and momentum, now that's something wonderful.
    Are you a brazilian man with with funny english? I was referring to Saulo's video (which was really good, btw)
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  8. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2005 11:52am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    RedElvis and I are actually on the same page.

    Using your elbow on the thigh for leverage or to block them from rising or reclosing their guard is all good and fine. I'm not saying your elbow should never touch the thigh, or that there should never be pain involved, but that leverage should be doing most of the work, not the pain.

    The particular thing I am talking about is when someone just sits their and tries to boar holes in your thighs with their elbows, with the intention of inflicting pain, not to apply proper leverage. I've seen people do this so badly as putting their hands by their chest and just sitting their grinding and grinding down with their elbows, waiting for the other person to open their guard just to relieve the pain. Relying on this trick is probably also a sign that you are lacking in other points, like base, posture and guard passing knowledge, which is why I'm saying it's not successful at higher levels.

    BUT WAIT! I will say bitch moves are great in competition and in real life. Feel free to **** people up then and be a complete bitch. I'm just complaining about using them on your training partners, or using them instead of learning better ways to do things.
  9. PoleFighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2005 12:23pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian

    The particular thing I am talking about is when someone just sits their and tries to boar holes in your thighs with their elbows, with the intention of inflicting pain, not to apply proper leverage. I've seen people do this so badly as putting their hands by their chest and just sitting their grinding and grinding down with their elbows, waiting for the other person to open their guard just to relieve the pain. Relying on this trick is probably also a sign that you are lacking in other points, like base, posture and guard passing knowledge, which is why I'm saying it's not successful at higher levels.
    I agree with the above statement.
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  10. Boogyman is offline
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    Professional Fighter

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2005 12:45pm

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     Style: MMA (and others)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pain is a great motivator, it motivates people to give me the subs, or...heh...heh...heh...

    I do agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but the simplest moves are going to be the best bet in any situation (competitive or not). If you can determine where/what is going to be most painfull for your opponent-while you are passing (going for subs, or pretty much anything), your game will get very good, very fast.
    [A friend once told me he found Jennifer Connelly hot.
    "Would she still be hot if she were melting in a car wreck, like at the end of Pollock, smelling of burnt hair and bubbling intestines?" I asked.
    "Oh hell yeah."
    "How? How would you even have sex with her?"
    "Just let her cool and fold her over, like an omolette."
    Since then we've always had this universal sign for Jennifer Connelly, it's like an "opening a book" motion, only backwards. And we are often known to softly remark "....like an omolette".]--boyd
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