View Poll Results: How do you pass the guard?
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From the knees.
12/21/2004 10:12pm, #21
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
I prefer to open the guard by standing up, yet when I pass, I do so on the knees (I bring one knee up and cross it across his groin- the option is available to go either way). I like this way because, as Johnny stated, it allows to put your weight on your opponents hips and I feel gives your opponent on the bottom less room for error. I also do not need to change my game plan from gi to no gi.
As far as baiting submissions, I dont believe in it, because I think its too risky (baiting sweeps can be another thing I guess).
I can say that just about anyone whos tried to bait me when Im on the bottom (figure with an armbar or triangle) I've caught, because those are my best moves.
12/21/2004 10:17pm, #22
my main closed guard pass:
put one knee under their butt
grip their belt or pants at waist level
force my elbow inbetween my leg and their leg
create space to get both my arms out and stack
then usually I pass to side control
sometimes, I can get one knee pinned down with my elbow on this then I bring up my knee to get over theirs for getting to the mount-- I think this way is better for control but it doesn't happen as often"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln
Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
12/22/2004 12:20am, #23
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
- Soviet State Of Kalifornia
First off my compliments on a very good thread! Lots of good info so far!
Now, as for guard passing and what I do. I currently train no gi and have for a long time however I do have a solid foundation in gi training as well. My style would now be classified as “submission fighting” with techniques mainly from BJJ and wrestling with limited CSW and Shooto. We spar strictly grappling to submissions from both standing/knees and we spar MMA style from both standing/knees.
Strictly grappling w/ no gi:
Here I will do either type depending on the situation and what either my opponent is giving me, or what I am trying create with my opponent. I would say though that in a no gi scenario I am passing low 80% of the time. The reason is passing standing with nothing to grab except sweaty ankles is difficult due to my size. Most opponents that I train with outweigh me by at least 40 lbs and up and are all well versed in playing the open guard. This makes it very difficult to control their legs to say the least and expends energy I would rather use tappin’ they ass out. While passing low however I am not resting on my knees but rather putting my weight into them and generally making them as uncomfortable as possible. (i.e. elbows in the their inner thighs, shin bones on their thighs, knuckles deep in their gut w/ full body weight, knee pressing on their tailbone, wrist bones on their trachea etc.) Also what I lack in size I more than make up for in speed so for me to break the guard low and then to quickly quasi stand up and hop/jump over their guard is not unheard of. Also I have found that it’s just generally safer for me to pass low with no gi because of CSW’s one million f-en leg attacks! Shite!
I will pass standing though against lesser skilled opponents or if they are wearing sweat pants or gi pants. If they have something to get a good solid grip for me it makes all the difference in the world. The people I train with actually do a good mix of both and I do believe in training both.
As for baiting, I do it on occasion when the ‘ol lady is... Ooppps, wrong topic! Actually in regards to baiting in grappling I generally reserve that for attacking and not defending unless I’m in a bad spot and it will lead me to a way out. I never do it in the guard. Not safe in my opinion.
Sparring w/ no gi and punches/kicks allowed:
Interesting… Now my philosophy changes…
Bigger opponent: Here I will break the guard low with good posture (to keep from getting nailed) and lots of downward body weight a la knuckles in the gut. Once the legs are broken I just disengage to standing and begin my Silva style onslaught. I’ll kick the **** out of their legs and sides until either they try to stand or an opening develops for me to take an advantageous position like knee on the belly. If they try to stand then I either keep striking or close again to grapple for a better position.
Smaller opponent, same size opponent or noob: Break guard low w/ good posture, pass either low or quasi high and fight from knee on belly or side mount/mount or same as above. I’m still working on this though…
Low pass goes like this: Good posture, grab shorts/pants at belly and press weight with knuckles into belly/ribcage, elbows press into inner thighs, one knee goes behind tail bone and presses into it, other leg is up on foot away from their reach and apply pressure on all these points. Usually the legs open pretty quick… Next part varies depending on skill, size situation etc. I think I use about four variations from here.
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
12/22/2004 3:13am, #24
Just skimmed the thread, so apologies of this has been said. Under judo rules, when somebody stands up, y'all restart and go back to throwing.
Therefore, I pass low, by putting my knee under their butt, digging into their inner thighs with my elbows, and when their ankle uncross, crossing one shin to their leg to hold it down as I shift around to a pin.You're just JEALOUS!
12/22/2004 3:17am, #25
12/22/2004 3:22am, #26
In both no gi and gi, this is how I pass.
Posture, look at the wall.
Put one knee in the middle of their "cheeks"
keep hands immobilizing the hips, sit back with a straight back, and then arch the back and breathe in to uncross the ankles.
Immediately put one leg up, and decide which pass you're going to do, My best one at the moment is just simply using the knee I already have up to push the leg down, and bring the other leg over into side mount.
12/22/2004 7:01am, #27Originally Posted by Santa Claus
12/22/2004 9:24am, #28Originally Posted by Santa Claus
I also think I saw Omega do this at the Atlanta Throwdown, but at the time I didn't know enough about grappling to realize what he was doing.
It seems like there are two ways to go with this guard pass when you break the ankles apart
1) get a knee over the thigh and pass by crawling over, or
2) get two arms out then stack to side control
I generally do #2 as it's higher percentage for me"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln
Vote your conscience.... Vote Libertarian!
12/22/2004 9:57am, #29
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
I prefer to pass from the knees, and use a variation of the stack pass others have talked about. There is a risk of being triangled doing it, but as long as you keep your elbows in tight you are fine. That and I have fairly wide shoulders, which makes it very hard to triangle me to begin with. Generally I hook under the right leg with my left arm, bring it to my shoulder and stack. It works better if I can get both legs, but that's not always an option.
I used this one gi and no gi. Also in no gi I will pin the opponent, post a leg and then push their knee down and step over into half guard. It's an easy move that is very hard to defend. Then from there you can work half guard passes while having better control of your opponent.Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
12/22/2004 10:28am, #30
Interesting answers so far.
Just to give some supporting data to TNK!'s thoughts of how you could pass from that position, per my book, passes either go over, under, or around the legs, and this applies to both kneeling or standing.
Under-the-leg passes tend to involve stacking, so I see why TNK! (being heavier than his partners) would prefer them. Someone lighter might prefer passing over the legs, since it doesn't need as much weight behind it, and the same goes for passing around the legs.
Since I'm in the mood to overanalyse passing the guard today, I'd say I pass under the legs most of the time, even though I'm not particularly heavy. I have gotten stacking passes to work against people with up to 100 lbs. on me, so they can definitely work even when you are lighter. I just really need to make sure I've got every bit of my weight and force driving forward, and really trying to smash them down. I just make my goal putting their knees by their head and it works pretty well.
Looking at guard passes from the other side of the issue, when someone is passing my guard, because of my long legs, standing passes are the most effective way to uncross my ankles, but even then, it's not easy. Then due to my flexibility, stacking doesn't bug me much, so under-the-leg passes don't have the hugest success if they rely on me letting them pass due to having my knees by my head, since I'm pretty comfortable like that (at least more comfortable than people seem to think I should be).
What does mess me up are tight, inside, knee-driving over-the-legs passes. Probably because my legs are so long, it is not too hard to slip a knee through up my legs and start crawling through into side control or mount. These passes also tend to block most of my open guard options, so I can't fall back to spider or De la Riva like I would if they gave me the room.