Military Unarmed Combat/Martial Art

**Sheol** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 5:02pm

Nihilanthic:

Unfortunately, you're assuming a lot about what you might strike with a shin kick. If you hit soft tissue, that's fine, but what if you hit tools? It's not a far-fetched scenario given the predilection for soldiers to put things in those leg pockets. :) It's far better to use the boot for striking. Since the foot is also farther out than the shin, the striking velocity will also be greater.

Regarding the discussion of striking, it's apparent that there was more than a little bias that made it into the manual. Just my guess. :D

**Nihilanthic** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 5:21pm

I'd agree with that bias. But, honestly, you should be using your weapons before trying to box on a battlefield. Pull that knife! Ground and stab is better than ground and pound. And why not use your weapons? Furthermore, if you know ground fighting and he doesn't, use it! Stomp/stab his ass.

Boot kicks are effective, but you need to be careful with them. Mis-judge your range, you miss. Have your foot at the wrong angle? Sprained ankle... If you mis-judge range with your shin you end up hitting with your foot. Why not get some shin-pads/guards/armor anyway?

Your Shin wouldn't get broken if you hit a tool with a kick. It would hurt like a bitch but you would not likely hurt it very much except for a bruise. I don't know how much I've banged my shins hard into wood and metal, as a kid, before I knew a thing about Muay Thai or conditioning. Its a simple technique, and nobody's gonna call a foul if you kick their knee. When you're safe you can worry about a little pain. That manual really just tries to set up a clinch or takedown attempt, than to try to fight it out "fair".

&lt;Me&gt; John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? &lt;John&gt; *smacks me*
&lt;John&gt; I'd have to smack you sometime...

**Sheol** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 5:46pm

Nihilanthic:

Again, those combative methods were for situations that prohibited or restricted the usage of lethal force, such as when subduing a prisoner or a drunk soldier.

Any method must work with standard issue gear. To require that a soldier obtains non-standard gear run contrary to the purpose of standarized training. All kicks require care, so your reference to judging range when kicking with a boot is a bit strange. Also, when was the last time that you sprained your foot while stomping on a bug or kicking a ball? Further, that's why it's important that movements utilized are as natural as possible. Meaning that they follow normal movements that we tend to be naturally competent in performing. The reason why a proper chasse works so well is that it's basically a stomp. If you miss, no big deal because you are closing. (At least, you should be.) Effectiveness is important. When you hit, you had better inflict damage, otherwise you're just making your opponent mad. Once more, another reason to strike with your boot, rather than your shin.

**gong sau** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 6:16pm

&gt;Your Shin wouldn't get broken if you hit a tool with a kick. It would hurt like a bitch but you would not likely hurt it very much except for a bruise. I don't know how much I've banged my shins hard into wood and metal, as a kid, before I knew a thing about Muay Thai or conditioning.

Sorry, Nih, but this is false logic. When you were a kid banging your shins into things I'll bet you werent kicking with the full force of your body and hip behind the motion. Have you not seen the vid of the guy getting his shin snapped in half when his opponent shin blocked?

Don't want to gang up on anybody but I think Sheol has a good point here.

**Stold2** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 6:22pm

Actually when I was in 7th grade I did kick a horizontal cross bar with a full kick on accident. Hit it with my shin and everything...No break, but LOTS of PAIN as well as a dent.

**Sheol** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 6:31pm

Stold2:

Your bones are a great deal more resilent when you are a child. They become harder, less flexible, as you get older.

I have nothing against shin kicks in sport, but from a realistic standpoint, it's better to use your footgear to strike with. It reduces the chance of injury and inflicts more damage.

Edited by - Sheol on February 08 2003 18:32:25

**Nihilanthic** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 6:39pm

Dude, I have banged my shins HARD on things. Even now occasionally I hit the bag stand instead of the bag with my kicks... ow. But, its hardly broke. Yeah, I saw that vid. Everyone I've asked told me its a fluke.

Regarding this chasse... what is it? When I mean hitting with a boot messing up your ankle, I mean roundhouse style. Is a Chasse like a front stamp kick? A side kick?

The reason I think they put the low shin kick in there is because of its effectiveness. Its not something you need to have years of experience to do. I suppose in a future revision it will be changed to use their boot (which makes sense) but I was thinking the reason it wasn't expressed as an option was because if someone did it wrong they could hurt their ankle. Instep kicks with too much force can REALLY hurt.

All things being equal, though, you do have a point. It just seems too unlikely for it to be much of a problem. HtH is used if non-lethality is required, or being real quiet, or if the **** has hit the fan. AFAIK, there are now near-silent guns available, where the ONLY audible noise would be the trigger mechanism itself, or the bullet going through the air. And those problems are likely now not an issue anymore.

&lt;Me&gt; John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? &lt;John&gt; *smacks me*
&lt;John&gt; I'd have to smack you sometime...

**gong sau** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 6:54pm

Nih, if you want some info on the chasse, go here.

**Sheol** · Posted On: 2/08/2003 7:17pm

gong sau:

The problem with those illustrations is that they give the appearance that the chasse as being a strictly linear movement when it also utilizes rotation. (Like lifting your leg over a low wall or fence.) It is actually an elliptical kick. Also, there's a significant difference between Boxe Francaise (sport savate) and savate for the streets. Like stomping the knee or kicking the inside of the thigh.... JKD people will experience deja vu, but I must observe that there is a difference in the way many are taught the equivalents to the chasse, foute, or coupe de pied bas.