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  1. #11
    Gezere's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Non Commissioned Officer.

    I'm part of the backbone too. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

    What Phrost says is very true. Given the militaries recent state of highten alterness in the last couple of years, I'd say starting in mid 1999. Things began to change.

    Several missions to the Balkans pointed out a lack of H2H skills in soldiers when they needed them. This is one of the things that sparked the change and the creation of better training programs.

    >But to their credit, many Ranger "Bats" have hosted MMA fighters for seminars, including Royce Gracie.

    The 82nd has hoste Royce as well. He was the guest of honor at the first COMBATIVES tournament. Hopefully it will turn into a regular thing.


    >The true edge a soldier has, and especially a Spec Operator, is a combination of trained, refined skill, and heart.

    That will NEVER change.



    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  2. #12

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    U.S. military combatives were originally derived from British methods. If you looked at "WW2 combatives", you'd be basically looking at a version of WWI British combatives (which used European methods) with a little JJ thrown into it. Those methods were for a time in which trench-warfare was more common. Military confrontations have obviously gone in a different direction since then. Note the purposes of modern Army combatives training:

    1-2. PURPOSES OF COMBATIVES TRAINING
    Soldiers must be prepared to use different levels of force in an environment where conflict may change from low intensity to high intensity over a matter of hours. Many military operations, such as peacekeeping missions or noncombatant evacuation, may restrict the use of deadly weapons. Hand-to-hand combatives training will save lives when an unexpected confrontation occurs.

    More importantly, combatives training helps to instill courage and self-confidence. With competence comes the understanding of controlled aggression and the ability to remain focused while under duress. Training in combatives includes hard and arduous physical training that is, at the same time, mentally demanding and carries over to other military pursuits. The overall effect of combatives training is-

    The culmination of a successful physical fitness program, enhancing individual and unit strength, flexibility, balance, and cardiorespiratory fitness.

    Building personal courage, self confidence, self-discipline, and esprit de corps.

    So, as we can see, it isn't intended for field combat. It is meant for situations where lethal force is prohibited or restricted. So, I view it as being more honest about the practicality of such methods. Most missions, prior to Afghanistan, were peacekeeping missions. In effect, they were acting as 'police'. That is a role that the military is generally not trained for.

  3. #13

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    Something that could be done just to stay in shape, and to make sure they can take care of themselvs, is a bit of extra ongoing training with using weapons and hand to hand. Of course they get a lot of experience with their rifles, but why not some more experience with their hands and "Field-Expedient Weapons"?

    Soldiers also carry a knife, correct? Why not have some better training with the kinfe? Spending a little while doing drills is to replacement for actual experience. Those no-lie safety knives could be quite useful...

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

  4. #14

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    It would seem to me as high-tech and super specialized as today's US military is, the average soldier has so much information and training to digest that not that much time can be devoted to hand-to-hand training, and understandably so. It takes a lot of time to master and probably wouldn't be justified for the majority of soldiers with all the other things they have to train for in a limited amount of time.

    (BTW There is an excellent article on this website from an Air Force SF officer about this topic)

    From my understanding the military is changing its approach to hand-to-hand which is why you see almost pure BJJ here (looking at my Gracie books, these newer army pictures replicate their pics and captions almost shot for shot.) The striking section looks a lot like straight boxing with some MT kicks.

  5. #15

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    k-diddy:

    Actually, the most effective kicks are mostly from savate. This is because a soldier is not going to be bare-footed. Kicks should utilize the boot. Shin kicks ignore the usage of that tool. Further, how many soldiers are going to have time to condition their shins for fighting.

    Time is certainly a restriction. Also, there is a finite amount of resources. Between putting money into more field exercises or hand-to-hand combat, which is likely to make a difference in warfare? I choose field exercises.

  6. #16

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    Sheol, I'm with you on the Savate thing. The way they show to do a sidekick in that combatives manual is less than optimal; a chasse would be much more effective in the scenario they give.

    In general, that manual is pretty good. Not very extensive, as one would expect from military h2h. Interesting to note the actual methods they use for training these techniques.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  7. #17
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    The marines have their own system, called MCMA, if I am not mistaken.

  8. #18

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    Anyone with a list of good military manuals they could recommend?

    PEACE!
    Ghost of Charles Dickens

  9. #19

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    Shin kicks to the thigh don't need a whole lot of conditioning, if any. Its easy to do and because most of a person is quite soft, and few soldiers would shin block, its a good technique.

    Overall, the strategy in that manual seems to be to work your way in, take them down, and finish them off quickly with them on the ground. The more extensive groundfighting seems to be "just incase". The clinch is talked about a lot in that manual, and it even states that "striking is not an ideal way to finish a fight". Seems GnP and real simple submissions is what the military likes right now.

    Now if only they'd give some good knife integration...

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

  10. #20

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    Right. Knife fighting ala Dune novels would be nice. ;p

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