Didn't so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards
Posted On:12/17/2004 7:55pm
Style: Ex-TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai
Earth grip? Could you explain for those of us who aren't Kali-ists? (not like I expect to be stickfighting any time soon, but it could happen)
EDIT: I really don't see many stickfighting technique threads (or I just haven't been looking). Why don't you start a couple, starting with that technique?
sudo make me a sandwich!
Sardonic or Sarcastic?
Posted On:12/18/2004 12:01am
Style: Filipino Kun Tao, Kali
Earth Grip - the majority of the stick pointing toward the earth when you hold your arm straight out
Heaven Grip is the opposite
Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
I would so do Buttsecks.
Posted On:12/18/2004 9:38am
OK, I love when guys lay their forearm across my throat from mount (or anywhere else) because I can usually reverse this into a choke on my opponent. That's right, without a change in body positioning (the top guy stays on top) the bottom guy here can turn this into his OWN choke to submission.....I do it so easily that my regular training partners know to be very careful doing the move pictured.
If there is interest I can give step by step instructions on how to do this (not a high level move). You most CERTAINLY can choke out someone who is mounted on you......even someone who is mounted AND choking you.
Is the suspense killing you? I'm ready to outline........
Posted On:12/18/2004 1:04pm
Quit being such a cocktease.
Posted On:12/18/2004 3:00pm
Nice! :) Just trying to gather a crowd. Here we go..............ready to choke this guy?
First, open up another browser window with the photos at the beginning of
this thread visible so you can follow along as you read my post
here........great. Keep your attention to the bottom photo.....where the
top guy is done with the set up and has supposedly "won".
1. To begin, the guy on the bottom needs to get his right arm (I can't even
see it but it IS free somewhere) out and up....palm to his opponents left
side (same side) shoulder.
2. Then, his left arm, also free, needs to fold (keeping the elbow where it
is, checking the knee, is a good idea) so his left palm is face up under his
opponents elbow (someone correctly mentioned this before I believe).
3. Now, with your hands in this position you can relieve some of the
pressure, but not all. A lot of guys get choked from here anyhow....the top
guy has all his weight to use against you. Time to redirect the pressure
and use that weight AGAINST him!
4. Two things need to happen at once now.......1- As you are pushing away,
making that tiny bit of space, the left hand on the elbow changes from
pushing "up" to pushing to the RIGHT (check the photo)....this is a quick
motion where your hand quickly goes from the "bottom" of his elbow to the
"side" of his elbow.......and you shove....his right elbow is now somewhere
near your right ear.... at the same time.......2- Your right arm which is
palm up on the shoulder, pushing hard, now pops off causing your opponent to
fall forward inside the arm.....wrap the right arm around the back of your
opponents head and pull him in tight.
5. Now, right away he is feeling the arm that was "choking" you getting
trapped so he is going to want to pull it out...BUT...you DO NOT ALLOW THIS
by quickly pulling your head forward (up in this position) and keeping your
left hand in place pushing his elbow to the right. Also, continue to
tightly hold your opponent down with your right arm around his neck.
6. Here is the end for him! (follow closely here) As you push his left
elbow in, your head pushes to the right and up (your head should now be
against his right arm, somewhere between his elbow and shoulder) you can now
free your left hand from the elbow.....your head alone (PLUS the fact that
your right arm is holding him down) is enough to keep his right arm in place
across the right side of his throat. Your right arm should have him pulled
all the way in (especially since he basically fell into you when you
suddenly released the "pushing away" pressure) so you can place your right
hand in the crook of your left arm (a la rear naked) and squeeze until you
can place your left palm on the back of your head. Your right arm chokes
one side and his own arm chokes the other side.
7. Now you will feel him panic.......squeeze for all your worth as this
choke is NOT a "3 second" choke....it takes a bit. You will have to deal
with his emergency escape strength so hold TIGHT. You will see his head
turn red, then purple, then you will hear some weird wheezing sounds as his
escape strength fades.....then TAP.
I have a VHS tape of me doing this to a HUGE MONSTER OF A GUY in a NO GI
tournament who was in my guard laying his forearm HARD across my throat. My
guys new that was a mistake for him and were just waiting......He managed to
escape the choke though because his arm (the one pinned) was not in the
exact spot (but the set up was real cool!) I was 95% there though,,,,,DOH!
He was gurgling and fighting.......my guys were cheering....it was great.
Getting his arm in there tight is very important here......as you mess with
this you will see what I mean and perfect the set up.....be patient.
It is a bit easier to do this from guard but it certainly works from mount.
In guard you can help with your legs to make the space to set this up and
also help to let him "fall into you" as you begin the move by pulling him in
with your legs. You can also do this if you are on top and a guy is keeping
you off with a forearm to the throat. It works from just about every
It is.......an ARM TRIANGLE. Peace......
Posted On:12/18/2004 3:08pm
Thank you much, +rep for you. Renzo and Royler's book has something similar to this for taking a guy's back when he tries a forearm choke while in your guard.
With the paper cutter though, he's grabbing your collar and using it as a fulcrum. Wouldn't that make it harder to push his forearm away?
Posted On:12/19/2004 5:16am
True, this counter works best with NO GI because your opponents choking arm has only the hand cupped over the shoulder. However, even with the GI I find that pushing your opponents arm across (you say "away" but across is a better description) is easy since you are pushing TOWARDS the grip.
In other words, pulling your opponents arm away would be very difficult if he holds tight but forcing it across is a bit easier because the wrist folds when pushing towards the grip. Try it on your own hand.....pulling the grip OFF is tough but push TOWARDS a gripping hand (from the elbow) and the grip really means nothing.....it is the wrist strength that is stopping the pressure.......much more difficult to withstand.
The mechanics somehow work well here because I pull this off frequently. If your opponent gets the grip tight, his arm sunk in well, and his base strong....you are in for a fight here, of course. The trick here (as with most counters) is to act fast, before your opponent has a chance to fully sink his arm and get his base. With experience comes timing.....a very important facet of this game. When you feel the threat of this "paper cutter" choke begin, you must act fast, hard, and most importantly........at the exact "right moment" for this counter to be most effective.
Drill it soft, then drill it hard, then use it when sparring. It WILL work. Let me know how you do......I will check back here and offer pointers if needed. THANKS.
Posted On:12/19/2004 12:53pm
This just in...for those of you who have The Triangle, check out "Triangle Setup from the Mount Position Version 3" on page 160. Does this look like a setup from a failed paper cutter to anyone else?
And Arm Triangle, thanks again for the help. After finals week, if I can get back to BJJ, I'll give it a shot.
Posted On:12/22/2004 2:16pm
Is "The Triangle" a Machado book? I have heard of a DVD instructional but don't think I have heard of a Triangle specific book.......
If anyone is into Pancrase, Ken Shamrock loves this choke I have outlined above and he sets it up similarly to how I have described. He used it to beat Masakatsu Funaki TWICE, I believe.
Posted On:12/22/2004 2:18pm
Here's a thread about The Triangle. It's a book and DVD by Rigan Machado:
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