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  1. Trinity is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 7:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Shotokan: Why the love of tradition???

    For a style where you hear 'logic' so eulogized (does this make you think of French revolutionary philosophy? Logic Not Tradition?), Shotokan adheres to what seems to be a lot of foolish tradition. I train in it myself and while I defend it against a lot of 'TMA bashers' I have to admit that some of them have a point. I have been told that my stance when sparring should be longer and looser, with the hands held further apart - I have developed the habit of standing like a MMA, contracted, with guard held high and close to the body - because it's the traditional one. I don't see the point of that, because the conventional stance leaves the face and some of the body open.

    I have also been told that I must not dodge or roll to the side when blocking during bunkai (see link below)
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=22664. I was told that the seniors could do this but I had to learn the basic, traditional moves before I could do the sophisticated stuff. How sophisticated is dodging, for ****'s sake?

    Now all of this is contradictory, because when we train for self defense, we drop the traditional stuff. We use a much shorter, contracted stance with the guard held high (oh ****, I'll just say it. LIKE A MMA!!!). So obviously, the latter is more effective. So where did the logic go, and what exactly is the objective of Shotokan training methods if you deliberately use something that is less effective than it could be? What is the psychology of these 'old schoolers'???

    Does anyone have an answer???
    Last edited by Trinity; 12/08/2004 8:11am at . Reason: Forgot link.
  2. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 7:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is nothing wrong with TMA, indeed, all arts are TMA, even modified and MMA have, at their core, a TMA.
    Its outdated and obsolete TRAINING that is wrong and often times, dangerous.
    Why do some hold on to them?
    Lack of understanding.
    MA are suppose to grow, to evolve, if they don't, they die.
  3. Zeddy is offline

    The Eternal n00b

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 7:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: CM Boxing/BJJ/RBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    There is nothing wrong with TMA, indeed, all arts are TMA, even modified and MMA have, at their core, a TMA.
    Its outdated and obsolete TRAINING that is wrong and often times, dangerous.
    Why do some hold on to them?
    Lack of understanding.
    MA are suppose to grow, to evolve, if they don't, they die.
    Or turn to mcdojo or the dark path of bullshido.

    I'd just like to point out the high guard isn't a characteristic of MMA only.

    Edit: re bunkai, if they are saying it's self defence, that should be your cue to explore. If they're harping on tradition during self defence, that's a bit of a problem in my book.
    Last edited by Zeddy; 12/07/2004 8:01am at .
  4. Ippatsu182 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 8:01am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    There is nothing wrong with TMA, indeed, all arts are TMA, even modified and MMA have, at their core, a TMA.
    Its outdated and obsolete TRAINING that is wrong and often times, dangerous.
    Why do some hold on to them?
    Lack of understanding.
    MA are suppose to grow, to evolve, if they don't, they die.
    I agree with this and besides, what characterizes it as "shotokan karate" anyway? I think they hold on to their ways because it's what defines the art. However, I think that some traditions should be broken. Otherwise, we'd just be trying to relive someone else's "past battles."
  5. Miguksaram is offline
    Miguksaram's Avatar

    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 9:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity
    For a style where you hear 'logic' so eulogized (does this make you think of French revolutionary philosophy? Logic Not Tradition?), Shotokan adheres to what seems to be a lot of foolish tradition. I train in it myself and while I defend it against a lot of 'TMA bashers' I have to admit that some of them have a point. I have been told that my stance when sparring should be longer and looser, with the hands held further apart - I have developed the habit of standing like a MMA, contracted, with guard held high and close to the body - because it's the traditional one. I don't see the point of that, because the conventional stance leaves the face and some of the body open.
    To me this whole thing is contradictory. You want to practice a traditional martial art but then get bent out of shape when you can't be more "modern" in your classes. That's like saying you want to learn traditional way of traveling in the old west, but get pissed when you can't use your car. You are in a TMA, the logic behind the movements are old. Plain and simple. If you want practical up to date self defense then take an MMA or JKD.

    I have also been told that I must not dodge or roll to the side when blocking during bunkai (see link below). I was told that the seniors could do this but I had to learn the basic, traditional moves before I could do the sophisticated stuff. How sophisticated is dodging, for ****'s sake?
    We do bunkai in our system for the forms as well. Basicly we run through the form while people attackin a matter that the form was made to defend against. I am told that it holds two purposes; 1) Tradition. Plain and simple. We practice the bunkai for the sake of tradition, not practicality. 2) It gives us a better idea of how the form, itself is supposed to be executed. (example blocking a kick and then shifting your stance to deliver a counter punch) Now for those of you who are going to start screaming that is stupid and no one would ever attack like that and blah...blah...blah....Please see purpose number 1 of why we practice bunkai.

    Now I have never been told that the seniors can move a different way than the juniors. All must execute the bunkai in the appropriate way. So perhaps, that is something that has to do with your school's philosophy.

    Now all of this is contradictory, because when we train for self defense, we drop the traditional stuff. We use a much shorter, contracted stance with the guard held high (oh ****, I'll just say it. LIKE A MMA!!!). So obviously, the latter is more effective. So where did the logic go, and what exactly is the objective of Shotokan training methods if you deliberately use something that is less effective than it could be? What is the psychology of these 'old schoolers'???

    Does anyone have an answer???
    Traditional moves can be useful if you know how to use them. It is simply a mind switch. You say that your self-defense is practical. Start looking for some of your tradtional moves in the self-defense techniques that you use. When you are practicing your tradition, star thinking how would this be practical in a real situation. Granted the whole horse stance type thing is not practical fighting stance, but the techniques can be used effectively if you look past just physical movement. Also start looking at stance training like conditioning more than fighting application. If none of this works and you really can't find a reason for all the TMA, then get the hell out the system and find a more modern fighting system. It really is that simple. BTW...how long have you been studying Shotokan?
    Last edited by Miguksaram; 12/07/2004 1:28pm at .
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
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    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 9:20am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My instructor is a sixth dan in Shotokan and all of our pro fighters are Karateka at the core (i.e. footwork), but we know enough to train thai-style leg kicks and boxing-style guard. All of them also happen to be top-notch brown belts under Sylvio Behring, and my instructor just got his black belt in the summer.

    You can train a "TMA" all you want, as long as you never sacrifice effectiveness for the sake of custom.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    I think the forum's traditionally light-handed approach to moderation has become untenable.
  7. OC Kid is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 10:53am


     Style: Karate/Kempo/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Master Nakachi the founder of the karate system I orginally got my rank in said about kata.
    I teach you the moves. You make it yours.
    Thats the same thing with any MA, TMA or not. You learn the moves and then use the ones you like.
    I teach the trad Japanese stances. Why because they are the basic stances to all fighting. Take the Zenkutsu Dachi (fwd stance) for example. When you see a boxer or whom ever hit the bag they do use that stance. Maybe as a transitional stance move around hit the bag when they punch they shift their weight forward with their knee bent. So there is some value in what your learning. IMO
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 12:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nakachi ??
  9. Aefibird is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 4:12pm


     Style: karate, kobudo, wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyway, there's nowt wrong with training in the traditional way. My Sensei has a 5th Dan in Shotokan, but also holds dan grades in Goju, Matsubayashi Shorin, Kyokushin, Judo and JuJutsu. He's also trained in Aikido and Muay Thai.

    He's also used to be a renowed "anything goes" streetfighter, with a reputation for no mercy. Even though he had a very sucessful streetfighting 'career' in his younger days he teaches a LOT of traditional stuff to us because he thinks it is useful and that it can be easily adapted.

    As for the not dodging/dodging thing when doing bunkai, that must be a individual thing your school does.

    Anway, if you dislike the tradition stuff in shotokan so much then it might be a good idea for you to find a more 'modern' and 'effective' MA school...
  10. Antagony is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/07/2004 4:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Filthy Jailhouse Tactics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aefibird
    He's also used to be a renowed "anything goes" streetfighter, with a reputation for no mercy.
    Kind of like every other bullshit martial artist, huh?
    MY NAME IS ANTAGONY I SUCK AT COMBAT SPORTS KTHX

    "blahblahblah, but I don't think I'm going to train tonight."
    "Fag."
    "Well if that were true, then I'd really REALLY want to come train!"
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