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  1. TimeToPartyHard is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 12:25am


     Style: JuJitsu, KenJitsu, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Samurang

    One of my new favorite discussions is the existance of the Korean Samurang. Supposedly they were the origin of the Japanese samurai. Has anyone heard of them, and if so, what have you been told or have you read?
  2. triple is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 12:28am


     Style: Tai-Gip-su

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Favourite discussion? Meaning you discuss this regularly with confidence on your part? Why not share some information on your point of view first? (include any relevant background info)
  3. TimeToPartyHard is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 12:56am


     Style: JuJitsu, KenJitsu, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The main arguement is that the Korean Samurang were the origins of the Japanese samurai. However, there is absolutely no evidence in any of Korean recorded history that the samurang existed. Samurang is one of fabrications by Haidong Gumdo, who says it was a name for Goguryeo warriors.

    According to Haidong Gumdo, a master called Seolbong (Sul Bong; 雪峰) taught Haidong Gumdo in the Changbai Mountains during the Goguryeo Dynasty and the practitioners were called Samurang (士武郞). Some of them moved to Japan and came to be called Samurai.

    The word Samurang, again, never appeared in history. In addition, the three Chinese characters 士武郞 are pronounced as "shi-bu-rō" in modern Japanese and as "shi-bu-rau" in old Japanese, quite different from samurai. In fact, Haidong Gumdo coined this word so that it sounds similar to samurai in the modern Korean language. Considering the ultimate etymology of samurai, the verb samorafu, the fabrication is obvious to Japanese, but some uninformed Koreans and Westerners are deceived.

    Also Goguryeo (also known as Koguryo; Chinese: Gāogōulí) (1st century BC-668) was a kingdom in southern Manchuria and northern Korea. It is often referred to as one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea, along with Baekje and Silla. In the early Heian, the late 8th and early 9th centuries, Emperor Kammu sought to consolidate and expand his rule in northern Honshu. The armies he sent to conquer the rebellious Emishi lacked motivation and discipline and were unable to prevail. He then introduced the title of Seiitaishogun (征夷大将軍) or shogun and began to rely on the powerful regional clans to conquer the Emishi. Skilled in mounted combat and archery, these clan warriors became the emperor's preferred tool for putting down rebellions.

    Look at the 2 time periods. There is a little over 200 years betweeen them. Theyre claiming that a group that had been completely phased out, influenced a group 200 some years later. Also it doesn't seem that the Goguryeo warriors were anything more than an army. The samurai were obviously a bit more than that in the way that they served.

    It just doesn't seem to me that it is possible. There are just too many logical, and proven, facts that simply rule out the existance of the samurang, and the influence of the Goguryeo warriors on the Japanese samurai. I've pasted most of this together from encyclopedias (Wikipedia can be found online), and various martial arts websites, and discussions with friends who take Korean martial arts. If anyone else can add anything for either side, please feel free.
  4. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 1:39am

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  5. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 2:08am

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     Style: Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I've been told my a Korean grandmaster I know, the samurang's greatest and constant enemies throughout their time period were the ninjung. The ninjung used to infiltrate samurang training camps, and seek out and assassinate the leaders of the samurang forces.

    Have you read any of this? I was told, or rather, I understand that the samurang covered this part of their history up because they were ashamed that several of their top guys were just found dead in the morning. The sentries swearing they had heard and seen nothing.
    Last edited by PizDoff; 12/03/2004 11:29am at .
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  6. hombre is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 3:37am


     Style: ninjudo-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no historical knowledge to add. But I do think I can add something of interest. Those three characters: 士武郞, do have a striking connection to what you're saying. In Mandarin it's Shi-wu-lang, and in Cantonese, which seems to have a closer resemblence to Korean and Japanese, it's Si-moh-long. Ofcourse, you got the stereotype of the Japanese and to a lesser extent the Koreans turning all the L's in the beginning of the syllable to R's, and I've seen more than a few examples of Chinese words that start with an L sound being nearly identical in Korean but starting with an R sound (especially with Cantonese). I can't think of any right now, but I know they're there.

    And the characters themselves are 士: agent/soldier/warrior 武: warfare 郞:man. Is samurai usually written in Japanese with kanji or hiragana? If it's kanji, then I can imagine a Korean guy just putting it out of his butt or how the phonetics would be close and not really have the theory be true. But if it's written in hiragana or even katagana I personally would lean to it not being a coincidence and that the Japanese really did adopt the whole thing.

    All amatuer pseudo linguistics on my part, ofcourse.
  7. Jenfucius is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 1:01pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    samurang??? you've got to be fucking kidding me
  8. Jenfucius is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 1:01pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    korean martial arts history is all about seeing how guillible people really are
  9. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 1:05pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

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    Koreans are crazy.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2004 2:53pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TimeToPartyHard
    The main arguement is that the Korean Samurang were the origins of the Japanese samurai. However, there is absolutely no evidence in any of Korean recorded history that the samurang existed. Samurang is one of fabrications by Haidong Gumdo, who says it was a name for Goguryeo warriors.
    That is because they did not exist. I have talked to a few other Koreans (meaning my wife, her uncle, and a couple of TKD GM's), and they said if there was anything remotely close to Samurai it would have been the hwarang.

    According to Haidong Gumdo, a master called Seolbong (Sul Bong; 雪峰) taught Haidong Gumdo in the Changbai Mountains during the Goguryeo Dynasty and the practitioners were called Samurang (士武郞). Some of them moved to Japan and came to be called Samurai.
    Wherein lies the problem with the story. It was the Paekche kingdom who had people flock to the Ryukyu islands and inhabited what is now known as Japan. Now it is rumored, with no documented proof, that the Paekche brought along the sword making process which the Japanese perfected. While Koguryo was still a kingdom, prior to their fall in 668 AD, they helped hold off the invading Japanes Army in 400 AD. So how can a kingdom be responsible for "finding" a class of warriors, when they pretty much already exisited. Now since the Samurai did not really come into play until 710, during the Heian Period, and Koguryo, as a kingdom, fell in 668 how is this possible?


    The word Samurang, again, never appeared in history. In addition, the three Chinese characters 士武郞 are pronounced as "shi-bu-rō" in modern Japanese and as "shi-bu-rau" in old Japanese, quite different from samurai. In fact, Haidong Gumdo coined this word so that it sounds similar to samurai in the modern Korean language. Considering the ultimate etymology of samurai, the verb samorafu, the fabrication is obvious to Japanese, but some uninformed Koreans and Westerners are deceived.
    Which proves one more thing, Chinese characters was the main source of written communication. You never had to translate that from Korean to Japanese because they knew how to read them (for those who knew how to read that is). So you would not have two seperate characters for Samurang and Samurai. If they were the same thing, it would have the same characters.

    The Haidong Kumdo is nothing more than a Korean man trying to make some fast cash by giving another false indeginous martial art to the Koreans. Now that scheme is starting to trickle over to Amercia. He shoudl have done it sooner before the internet, that way he could have made a fortune. Now he is just screwed because of sites like Bullshido.
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