Page 1 of 4 1234 Last
  1. #1
    itwasntme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Norf Carolina, throw ya hands up
    Posts
    1,715
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "new" judo throws

    adcc facebook page shared this video earlier:
    https://www.facebook.com/rajesh.jaya...son=was_viewed

    i'd like to get the opinions of these throws from the vets. do these look effective or just flashy? are they really new?

  2. #2
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,822
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most judo throws have a certain "flash" to them especially during a demo..it's poetry in motion. That doesn't mean they're as cute or smooth when someone isn't playing good uke.

    However you cut it these are 100% compliant demos, which by design are going to always seem amazing.

    But they're also dead.

    I agree with this comment:

    There are no new moves in Judo. They have all been done before but over time they are forgotten until an old Sensei says who did it the last time. The moves are just mixes or slight changes on the core throws of Judo. They do look fun but if they don't work in competition or reality then they are just that fun.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/17/2015 3:08pm at .

  3. #3
    Speaks Softly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    153
    Style
    None
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only throw I hadn't seen before was the Tornado throw.
    The masters perfected Karate. What fool is there today that can step forward and perfect perfection -- From the introduction to the book "Shoto-Kan Karate-The Ultimate in Self-Defense" written by Peter Ventresca

  4. #4
    judoka_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,625
    Style
    Judo
    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.

    The two with the ridiculous names of Macho Tai Otoshi and Tornado are definitely not new.

    The Macho Tai Otoshi is just a Tai Otoshi with the arm round the back and a bit of an initial stab. The Tornado is just a mawarikomi entry to an Ashi Guruma, you can see it done in some ancient sepia footage about 30 seconds in.


  5. #5
    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten. supporting member
    Devil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    9,010
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.
    I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know **** about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.

  6. #6
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    10,323
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
    adcc facebook page shared this video earlier:
    https://www.facebook.com/rajesh.jaya...son=was_viewed

    i'd like to get the opinions of these throws from the vets. do these look effective or just flashy? are they really new?
    They are henka (variations) waza of standard judo throws. Some are fairly recent competition variations, others have been around for a while.

    The guy doing them is obviously quite skilled, so nothing against him!

    For example, the Tornado Throw looks like Ashi Guruma, but done with what is called a Mae Mawarikomi entry/tai sabaki (front spinning). That type of entry can be used for most forward Judo throws.

    Here is Mifune using mae mawarikomi to do O Guruma...about 14 seconds in...


    Or, from the Kodokan Judo video series... at 4:10...and 5:33...I may be wrong in that O Guruma appears to be more to the front, Ashi Guruma to the side, but I think you get the idea.


    The Sode Tsurikomi Goshi 1 in the video is a mae mawarikomi entry applied to that throw.

    The "Kashiwazaki" is a variant of Yoko Tomoe Nage attributed to Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki, and is an entry (hairi kata) variation. He called it "Furiko Tomoe Nage", "Furiko" meaning "pendulum".

    Go to about :33 in this video...


    You have to watch what people call Sode Tsurikomi Goshi. For example, the 2 and 3 examples in the video are IMO variations of Seoi Nage (2) and Seoi Otoshi (3). If you watch carefully you can see how uke is loaded on tori upper back. In a true koshi (hip) technique, uke is loaded on the hip/lower back of tori. They do grade into each other, something that starts as a hip throw can end up as a "back carry" (seoi) throw.

    In another thread, "butt bump" was used...you can use a butt (hip) bump to help with breaking uke posture, then load uke on your upper back to throw.

    In Judo at least, the final principle used to do the kake (throw) is the one that is used to name the throw, more or less.

    A more modern approach to get at the underlying principles, or the "how" of the throws would call some of those in the video "innovative techniques".

    So, no, not really new, some are flashy but all have been used in highest level of judo competition successfully by different judoka.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  7. #7
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    10,323
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Nothing genuinely new here, most are just modern competition variations.

    The two with the ridiculous names of Macho Tai Otoshi and Tornado are definitely not new.

    The Macho Tai Otoshi is just a Tai Otoshi with the arm round the back and a bit of an initial stab. The Tornado is just a mawarikomi entry to an Ashi Guruma, you can see it done in some ancient sepia footage about 30 seconds in.

    I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  8. #8
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    10,323
    Style
    Kodokan Judo
    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know **** about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.
    Kodokan Judo doesn't do that. People who do Kodokan Judo make names for variations. Some throws look a lot alike, but use a different principle.

    This isn't a perfect "rule" obviously. And in fact, an Italian kineseologist has come up with a different way to "classify" judo throwing techniques based on "real" physics rather than Kodokan's hand/foot/sutemi/hip paradigm.

    Google "Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza)" and see just how correct your observation is...

    Basically, you have Force Couple Techniques, and Lever Techniques, with some sub classification of the Lever techniques depending on placement of the fulcrum...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

  9. #9
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    10,822
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
    Two sharp judoka are better than one.

  10. #10
    judoka_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,625
    Style
    Judo
    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I'm certainly not arguing because I don't know **** about Judo, relatively speaking. But this statement does make me curious. It seems to me (an outsider) that Judo separately identifies all sorts of throws that are basically the same. So why is one variation a variation and another variation is a different throw with its own name. I'm legitimately curious.
    Judo throw names aren't precise descriptions of specific movements, but rather describe the underlying principles of throwing. This means that quite a wide range of movements can be covered by certain principle(s).

    It gets pretty complicated when you really dive into it, but that's the basic reason why Judo purists will see lots of superficially different throws and group them all under one 'name' as henka(variation) techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I guess I should just delete my post, LOL. At least we are backing each other up...
    Ha, well you know what they say, fools seldom differ.

Page 1 of 4 1234 Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO