223873 Bullies, 3494 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 41 to 50 of 154
Page 5 of 16 FirstFirst 12345 678915 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. DCS is offline
    DCS's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,036

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost,

    This kind of social service as alternative to serving in the military is done in some countries, especially in those with mandatory military service (for the "conscientious objectors"). What amazes me is a libertarian like you seems to be in general can be so socialist about this.

    Think about the disfunctions in the free economy if a lot of people, for some years, is working for his country (i don't expect great benefits from the government if this service is a way of taxing) as a way to be citizens.

    Also, what to do with the ones who don't want to serve , deportation?
  2. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,112

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:29pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You misunderstand me, a few of you.

    Try to open your mind to a new paradigm. It's not mandatory, or compulsory to serve. You just don't get full benefits of Citizenship, including the right to vote, if you chose not to.

    You will have the same freedoms, as a Resident (as opposed to Citizen), yet you won't get the ability to participate in the decision making process.

    Kind of like Puerto Rico.
  3. HAPKO3 is offline
    HAPKO3's Avatar

    Marasmos

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    SF
    Posts
    4,054

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: 10th Planet JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, amazingly enough, I kinda like the idea. I have a feeling, though, that it would present a serious economic problem to fund these programs in an efficient manner, but, in theory, it sounds good.

    The thing that I am weary of, though, is the inherent inefficiency of governments doing anything on a large scale. I shudder at the burocratic behemoth that would arise out of such an endeavor.
    You say what about my rice?
  4. DCS is offline
    DCS's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,036

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What would be the "full benefits of citizenship" ?
    What would be the differences between Residents and Citizens?
  5. luckylukster is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    32

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:42pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In Germany at the moment there is a debate on the future of conscription and its role within society. On one hand the military are looking forward to reform as the state would benefit from a smaller, more flexible professional force that could be deployed overseas with less political backlash. On the other hand, it appears that for years when a young German was called up and did not want to serve in the military they could choose another form of government approved work. This meant a cheap workforce for hospitals, schools and charitable agencies. The benefits to the state and cost savings to defence budget are being measured against the expected increased costs of health care and social services.
  6. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,112

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, those are my concerns as well actually. I'm not a fan of big government, but I reconcile this with the fact that it'd be a different animal than the one we have here in the US, where everyone can vote regardless of their service to society.

    Funding would have to come from somewhere, though. You're right about that. I haven't worked out all the details because I'm realistic about the fact that this system being implemented will never happen without a major catastrophe or some such.

    In Heinlein's work, from which I get the basis of this idea, it happens after the global economy collapses, wars break out everywhere, and some Scotts decide to restrict voting rights in their local government to Veterans. Granted, a SciFi novel is his medium to express the idea, which is the only way I can see this as a functioning global form of government (as humans can identify themselves as a species and not individual races, due to extra-terrestrial life with which to contrast ourselves)...

    But as a system of government for a nation, barring the details, I think it would be a much better form than what we have now, wherein birthright determines citizenship the same way it determined the rule of monarchies.
  7. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,112

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    What would be the "full benefits of citizenship" ?
    What would be the differences between Residents and Citizens?
    The right to Vote, or hold public office.

    Other than that, nothing.
  8. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,112

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 7:49pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by luckylukster
    In Germany at the moment there is a debate on the future of conscription and its role within society. On one hand the military are looking forward to reform as the state would benefit from a smaller, more flexible professional force that could be deployed overseas with less political backlash. On the other hand, it appears that for years when a young German was called up and did not want to serve in the military they could choose another form of government approved work. This meant a cheap workforce for hospitals, schools and charitable agencies. The benefits to the state and cost savings to defence budget are being measured against the expected increased costs of health care and social services.
    Which is the problem with any form of compulsory service, the same as with high taxation in exchange for a social security net: you provide little incentive to strive for excellence.

    While it could be argued that "my" system would have a similar problem with ticket-punching clock watcher types, intent on squeaking through their time with minimal effort, I think a somewhat militaristic structure to the service corps would help counter this.
  9. tkdan28 is offline
    tkdan28's Avatar

    Middleweight

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    2 hours from the beach, 4 from the mountains
    Posts
    1,743

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 8:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    I personally feel that if you never served in the military, or some similar form of public service, you shouldn't get to vote, much less run around in the woods with a Browning 50 cal.
    Reading Heinlein much?
    :headbang:

    Edit: I now know it was covered... I've been at a conference for two days and haven't been following threads in a timely manner. I could delete this post but I am a whore after all.
    Last edited by tkdan28; 12/01/2004 8:10pm at .
    Seventh: If you think TKD doesn’t work, your right, until you get the side of you face smashed with a roundhouse kick. -- ronin69

    It's just that I carry weapons and have no moral compass anymore. -- JKDChick

    At least until the Wing Chun clown car arrives. --JKDC
  10. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    8,049

    Posted On:
    12/01/2004 8:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now, long after first reading and loving the book you're basing much of this on, I find some elements of the idea mildly offensive.

    One reason being that it is pretty disingenuous to assume that only certain sorts of contributions actively contribute to the health of a society (beyond its economy). Given my current career path Wastrel's example is most apt, switch it to a public university.

    How is it that my teaching at a colege level is not 'public service'? Similarly how are the advancements in biological knowledge that I have and will contributed to not also public service (largely unmarketable, unlike Brand)? Considering the fact that I have, do and will contribute to society through educating the punk kids of your 'citizens' I think it crap that such activities not be considered service. It certainly is more 'service' than a large percentage of the military undertakes (how many serve their tours of duty in the mess, or motor pool?)

    Additional problems with the idea: 1) funding, as mentioned by you and others. If I'm paying for the programs, I'm voting even if I never got my ass shot at. 2) You're severely handicapping your 'citizens' in the work place, they'll be older and less competitive for many jobs and will certainly be lower on a pay scale than a non-citizen of an equivalent age.

    I'm also of the opinion that many supporters of this concept suffer from some rose colored nostalgia and unfounded elitism. How many enlistees sign up due to any sense of civic duty? In contrast, how many are looking for a way out and up (four squares, scholarships etc)? How many brick their way through their term of service?

    In contrast you have programs like the peace corp where the only reason people join is to help and make things better. That's what you'd want but it's not what you'd ever get given your model.
Page 5 of 16 FirstFirst 12345 678915 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.