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  1. #31
    DCS's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ray Nelson said:
    There are assholes in every group. And assholes with guns are more dangerous assholes. I'm sorry that you have had to run into one, and it is unfortunate that these people don't have more respect for the rights of others (namely, your right to say no). But because there are no fool-proof methods to keep assholes from getting guns, it doesn't mean that everyone should suffer for it. We're not all assholes. It's like assuming all Cubans love baseball because you met one that did.
    Of course there is assholes everywhere but i think (from the other side of Atlantic Ocean, and in a place where hunting is very common) all this weapons loving USA style is nothing more than the result of a well organized marketing work of the weapons manufacturers.

    To Phrost.

    I don't agree with your statements:

    "I personally feel that if you never served in the military, or some similar form of public service, you shouldn't get to vote..."
    Then working in a factory, office, school, studying, buying, thinking, fishing, writing books, driving cabs/buses/trains, ... makes you unable to vote because is not "a personal sacrifice" for the greater good of your country. I don't buy that.
    Things about Jits: How do Armbar 2.0

  2. #32
    Such as thou art, sometime was I. supporting member
    The Wastrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    As such, it's not a "two class" caste system in that everyone has the option to prove their dedication to the country, and be a full citizen with voting rights, or be content to live under the shelter of those who defend their freedoms without the right to affect policy.
    Is an employee of the DMV really serving more than an engineering professor who happens to teach at a private university?
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

  3. #33
    Phrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    Is an employee of the DMV really serving more than an engineering professor who happens to teach at a private university?
    Those are private careers. I'm talking something more akin to a Job Corps, or Military Service, or other similar option. Said professor could teach at a private university all he wanted as a Resident, or could teach there after his term of service was complete and he was a Citizen.

  4. #34
    HAPKO3's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can't expect people to pay taxes and support the gov't without having the right to vote. That's more or less the reason (at least as far as official rhetoric goes) why this country exists in the first place.
    You say what about my rice?

  5. #35
    Phrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    To Phrost.

    I don't agree with your statements.

    Then working in a factory, office, school, studying, buying, thinking, fishing, writing books, driving cabs/buses/trains, ... makes you unable to vote because is not "a personal sacrifice" for the greater good of your country. I don't buy that.
    You missed the part where everyone is granted the option to chose a term of government service.

    Picture an extended Citizen Service department of the government, somewhat like the military, where one can recieve skill training in a vocational career while applying it for the good of society. Those with lower aptitudes would do more manual labor like road construction, while those with special skills would be given the opportunity to apply them for the benefit of society, for the term of their service. Someone like Stephen Hawking, who's a genius yet not exactly the most able-bodied man, for example, could serve a term in R&D for the benefit of society before going back to public life.

    In the model I'm referencing (which could be adapted if necessary), the term of service is a minimum of two years, though subject to extension based on the needs of the government (such as in wartime).

    This would solve all sorts of society's ills, be they unemployment through a lack of skills or by providing an option for anyone to have a guaranteed job working for the benefit of everyone else. It's a sort of Socialism, but with the key component being individual service and not ridiculous taxes.

  6. #36
    Phrost's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HAPKO3
    You can't expect people to pay taxes and support the gov't without having the right to vote. That's more or less the reason (at least as far as official rhetoric goes) why this country exists in the first place.
    Even if they're free to make a choice whereby they'd earn their vote the same as their neighbor?

    The choice bit is key. You chose to give up a few years of your personal life, for the benefit of society, and by doing so earn the right to participate in decisions which affect it, or you chose to live under the protection and service of those who do.

    There are no freedoms being abridged here.

  7. #37
    Jekyll's Avatar
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    Like germany then, they do compulsary military service I worked with one guy who was bar staff for 9 months at an officers mess. I'm not sure how that contributed to society though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.

  8. #38
    Such as thou art, sometime was I. supporting member
    The Wastrel's Avatar
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    Yeah but...Soldiers get paid, Phrost. Can you imagine what politicians would do with all that free labor? Or imagine a scientist or engineer working in this program...does he sacrifice intellectual property rights?
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

  9. #39
    Phrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    Like germany then, they do compulsary military service I worked with one guy who was bar staff for 9 months at an officers mess. I'm not sure how that contributed to society though.
    Kind of like that, but it wouldn't even be compulsory. You'd have the choice whether to be a Citizen, through service, or simply a Resident.

  10. #40
    Phrost's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wastrel
    Yeah but...Soldiers get paid, Phrost. Can you imagine what politicians would do with all that free labor? Or imagine a scientist or engineer working in this program...does he sacrifice intellectual property rights?
    Yes, to both questions.

    This is where the details of the system of checks and balances would have to be weighed, based on a solid constitution.

    But by chosing to serve society in order to gain your citizenship, you agree to work for its benefit exclusively for that period of time.

    Could you imagine how far we'd be into Space Exploration if such a system were in place and the greatest minds of the country did terms of service specifically to such goals?

    As I see it, it doesn't conflict with my Libertarian sensibilities. You're freely exchanging something of yours (your time, skills, and risk), for the right to make decisions which affect society. And in doing so, you're demonstrating an explicit commitment to said society, which is absent in many of those who are given citizenship simply by virtue of being born in a particular place or any other factor that they have no control over.

    Make it a choice, subject to risk and sacrifice, and you'll have a lot fewer groups to deal with who try to vote themselves entitlements or benefits without having done ANYTHING to benefit society themselves.

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