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  1. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 10:00am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Asia problem is a thorny one, and one beyond a simple "martial arts" analysis. It became so wrapped around religion, political turmoil, rebellion, Confucianism, cargo-cult kinetics, Daoism, TCM, nascent Chinese nationalism, practice of "magic", anti-Western sentiment, form over function, imitation of elders over innovation etc. Martial Arts in Asia long ceased to be an answer to a problem-namely, how can I defend myself-and became instead a sociological stage. There are only the rare and notable exceptions to escape this. But rather than turning people away from them, the trappings have seduced people to the "cultural" aspect. Though most East Asians I know would be far happier if people learned their basic history.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  2. magikchiongson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 10:54am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bleh, what Asia problem, the only problem Asian Martial Arts is it ran into Capitalism, and Communism.

    Unless modern MAs invented a new way to hit from point A to point B then I don't see why looking back as to how people in the past handled such situations would be a problem.

    As for Asian Arts too caught up in religion, so were most European Warriors, Filipino superstition easily adapted to Catholic Zealotry brought by Spanish monks who were crusading against the Moros, who in turn were writing Arabic Spells on their armor and gear as they went into battle.

    So no religion has nothing to do with a Martial Art sucking or not, it probably enhances it.
  3. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 2:34pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your reading comprehension skills are very poor. Try again.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:01pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SamHarber:

    Regarding Silver's bias against non-English methods it's only too obvious. Perhaps to him, the French methods were too fanciful, the Italian methods were too reliant on the deep thrust, the Spanish method were simple and effective in practice, but too difficult to learn. (Huh?) Yet, his opinion regarding the practice of a complete range of expertise for the gentleman soldier was the same as other professionals of his era and earlier. Simply put, with the decline of reliance upon a relatively small group of highly trained men in favor of larger professional armies, the importance of the expert soldier became somewhat overlooked by history, especially as the accuracy, reliability, and operational ease of firearms steadily improved.


    Asia:

    I heard about Pankration before the commercialism, and it seemed to be very culturally centric and wrapped up in references to Greek families that still practiced it up till the German invasion of Greece. Past that, I have read nothing but anecdotal stories that might be rehashes of earlier tales from before WWII. Someday, I'll go back to Greece to see if those families still exist and whether there are actually any remaining practioners of it.

    Regarding Danse De Rue Savate, as you probably know, Texas, Oklahoma (once part of Texas), and Louisiana are cultural centers for the Spanish, French, and German communities. That's why Bowie/Navaja methods, savate/zipota, and German medieval methods are still researched/practised. The DDRS groups are very small, but I hope that DDRS does survive. It just seems very unlikely unless it can gain support from the mainstream cultural organizations. Professeur Paturel has been very active in Europe, but I'm not sure who else is there. If you get a chance, shoot off an e-mail to me with European contact information and some links if possible. I'd like to find out more about how the Europeans are doing.

    The DDRS people acknowledge their significant contributions especially since the Basque practiced those methods before Savate was codified. However, since the Basque people are not generally recognized, most references refer to them as either being Spanish, French, or Italian. Unfortunately for them, they happen to be spread across multiple borders, so most historical references to Savate, Chausson, and Zipota tend to gloss over the connection. They really are a link to the historical Mediterranean cultures.


    The Wastrel:

    I agree with you concerning the problems encountered when studying the Asian martial arts, particularly with regards to Chinese systems. The lack of reliable information and texts make it almost impossible to discern what actually constituted their actual fighting methods and what resulted from non-martial influences. The lines are particularly blurred, in the 'newer' systems. Of course, Asia is particularly enamored with Baji, so perhaps he could shed some light on what is/was actually used versus outside influences. :D


    magikchiongson:

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with historical research of combative methods. One should simply be carefully of context. Religion and other cultural aspects are a needless distraction when it comes to methodology and adds nothing of substance to the material. There is no enhancement of it at all and strong extraneous influences tend to degrade martial context over time as the methodology ceases to have relevance. It might appeal to someone's aesthetic sense, but there is price to pay from a combative standpoint.
  5. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:02pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Wastrel:

    It's hard to remain civil when it seems like you're speaking another language, doesn't it? :D
  6. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:13pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, and I really need to keep a handle on it. But the one thing that gets me steamed more than anything else is when people attribute ridiculous conclusions to very clear and uncontroversial things I've said. It's clear from reading my post that I REFRAIN from offering a magic bullet for CMA analysis. Nevertheless, someone jumps on the LEAST significant aspect of it and derives an argument that I never made. I could go on about how the West is very different because we fought an ideological war to replace scholasticism and mysticism with rationalism then skepticism and empiricism, but Christ, it's out there already. It's no secret. If people would just read a little...

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

    Edited by - The Wastrel on February 05 2003 14:15:54
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. magikchiongson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:49pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Wastrel:

    WTF are you talking about? That's what you just did, give an analysis of what's supposedly wrong with Asian Martial Arts, From studying the methology of it to actually being able to defend yourself with it. Problem here, is your trying to explain Asian Martial Arts through a Westerners eyes. Good fricking luck.

    As for Martial Arts no longer being pursued for self defense but rather as cultural thing, that's kinda unfair criticism, since over there the two are tied together.
  8. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:56pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The Asia problem is a thorny one, and one beyond a simple "martial arts" analysis."

    Thesis statement. Note, "problem" does not mean "What's wrong with it." I mean in the formal logic sense: problem means the riddle or the conundrum of explaining East Asian martial arts.

    "Problem here, is your trying to explain Asian Martial Arts through a Westerners eyes. Good fricking luck."

    Let me guess, you're Asian-American, and thus you think you're uniquely qualified to do this, right? That's more inscrutable Asia nonsense that would be racism in another context.

    "As for Martial Arts no longer being pursued for self defense but rather as cultural thing, that's kinda unfair criticism, since over there the two are tied together."

    Oh my frickin God. You are truly ignorant. Look at this:

    "Martial Arts in Asia long ceased to be an answer to a problem-namely, how can I defend myself-and became instead a sociological stage."

    Ohmigod...we're saying the same thing! Imagine that. The difference is that you don't understand what I'm talking about because you don't understand the words.




    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  9. magikchiongson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 4:48pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ohh my God, you're a real clown. Here's the difference between you and me asswipe. Yes, I'm Asian, but did you notice me trying to analyze Asian Martial Arts for you? Nope, instead I accept their explanations for it and don't look for anything more. In other words I don't give a rat's ass whether you believe in chi or not, their explanation of it is good enough for me. Get it? Of course not.

    Ohh and when you claim that Martial Arts in Asia is no longer for self defense, yes that denotes criticism and suggests there's a problem with that.

    I'm not arguing with you whether or not I'm more qualified to explain Asian Martial Arts to you or not, I just think you're ignoring the number one source for analysis on Asian Martial Arts, which is Asian Martial Artists and yes even White Martial Artists who study these arts.

    What I'm trying to say, is that its fricking difficult to analyse Asian Arts through a Westerners eyes. How do you explain Shamanism, and Animal and Demon possession of Silat Fighters? You can't, its crazy stuff. That's part of the Martial Arts over there, and yah you and me have mentioned that but my problem with you is the fact that you seem to think that it makes it less affective.

    I have no problem with you stating matter of factly that its difficult to explain Asian Martial Arts because of all the correct reasons that you noted, however when you start implying that its no longer self defense and just a social whim that's where I take issue.
  10. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 6:01pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    magikchiongson:

    I believe that Wastrel was saying that most Asian martial arts are no longer pursured for their combative attributes but for cultural reasons.

    From my experience, I believe this to be true. While many people who take martial arts are motivated by self-defense concerns, it is obvious that firearm training provides something much more effective and Western martial arts are certainly not slack, yet people flock to Eastern martial arts. Why? The image of Eastern martial arts is tied to things that have no relevance in a combative art and it is those things that attract people. Call them gimmicks, cultural accouterments, mystique, or whatever, but it remains that combative ability is NOT what primarily motivates them. In such a situation combative methods are sure to suffer, if not altogether disappear given time.
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