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  1. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2004 11:10am

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If some one else was reprinting these texts, I could use them instead :P, they do seem to have cornered much of the military combatives book market.
  2. The Crack Taoist is offline

    I got an axe to grind

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2004 5:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: thai.kali.no-gi.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah but Paladin was not the INITIAL publisher...

    That makes it OK :)
    let's talk about why fat-fu shall we?
  3. RoninPimp is offline
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    BJJ Black Belt

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2004 11:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great post Samuel Browning!
  4. Teazer is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2004 10:48am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Given men of equal speed, its the man who is not suprised by the others method of attack who will win. "

    Too long to tattoo, but worth remembering anyway.
    Was Yeaton quoting Fairburn or did he come up with that on his own?
  5. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2004 10:18pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is Point Shooting More Effective then Hand to Hand Adrenaline Stress Training?

    Okay Browning, you say, your diatribe has wandered away from your original thesis which was that point shooting is still state of the art for many people, while every model mugging student would improve their survival chances if they did MMA after graduation. Why is point shooting better for shooting, then RBSD is to hand to hand combat? I try to provide an answer to this observation in the following post.

    Remember Siddle's work on Hypervigilance and extreme stress? While physical confrontations leading to physical attacks are by nature very stressful, assuming a responsible citizen or police officer, each situation in which they need to use a pistol on another human being is almost by definition a life or death situation. So therefore if possible, their psychological stress levels are even higher then in unarmed combat.

    Secondly, while the techniques used in MMA are equally if not more practical then those used by Model Mugging or military combatives, there are severe weaknesses with using sighted fire methods in a real gunfight if one is not a highly trained shooter with a bit of ice water in their veins.

    Let me support this statement. In his book Siddle points out that the major problem with the Weaver stance is that "The contemporary Weaver Stance is based upon a side-cant of the body and head. The canting of the body indirected pulls the head sideways so the officer must establish sight alignment with his dominant eye. This stance is theoretically sound and biomechanically supported. However, single eye acquisition slows the visual processing time, resulting in a slower response time." (Siddle, p. 116)

    Additionally "the sympathetic nervous system will control and dominate all motor action when a student is confronted with a deadly force threat." (Siddle, p. 115) "Parasympathetic excitement contracts the ciliary muscle, which releases the this tension, allowing the lens to become more convex. This causes the eye to focus on close objects. During sympathetic response, the eye cannot focus, thus one will see the front sight out of focus which will result in a hightened state of stress." (Siddle, p. 117) The existance of a deadly threat will also draw most individual's sight directly upon the threat itself and will make it very difficult for them to focus their dominant eye on their pistol sights. By contrast the Isosceles Stance which uses both eyes more naturally, and point shooting which does not use sighted fire, are much less likely to be disrupted by the body's reaction to a spontaneous deadly force threat.

    The Isosceles stance in which the shooter squares on the target and has his arms form an inverted V in front of him to hold a handgun, was a stance for which the user was supposed to use the sights on their gun. However, even if the shooter was not using their sights because they were looking at the threat itself, the Isosceles retained some use as a shooting platform since the shooter was doing a centerline body point towards their target.

    One police training program at Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio even replaced their Weaver training with point shooting when they discovered in the early 1990s that under exercises "that applied some degree of stress on the trainee" this technique would suffer a "total breakdown" even with reinforcement on the static firing line. (Col Rex Applegate and Michael D. Janich, "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" (Paladin Press, Boulder Col, 1998) p. 75, This information came from a chapter entitled "Coming Full Circle: The Rediscovery of Point Shooting By Law Enforcement" by Steve Barron who instructs shooting in this program.

    Probably lots of the right training can compensate for the drawbacks extreme stress has on the Weaver stance, but the fact that there is a drawback to sighted fire, gives point shooting a advantage that RBSD does not possess when compared to MMA which has no such structural weakness. Additionally someone who survives a full contact MMA program for a year (as verses the Sammy Franco variety) is more likely to have life experences or an internal toughness that would have helped them do better then the average untrained person in a physical confrontation. Obviously these thoughts remain unproven but research cited by Siddle shows that in recorded spontanous shooting scenarios even Weaver advocates overwhelmingly collapsed into a one or two hand Isosceles stance, whereas, we cannot say MMA fighters more often or not lose their technique during a real fight. (See Siddle, pp. 50-51 for the results from Westmoreland, H. (1989). An Examination of Stress Shooting Stances; PPCT Research Publications).

    Copyright Samuel P. Browning, 2004
    Last edited by Sam Browning; 7/13/2008 9:40pm at .
  6. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2004 12:13am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Outer Envelope of Adrenaline Stress Training in Hand to Hand Combat

    Matt Thomas, the founder of Model Mugging, really disappeared as a spokesman for Model Mugging in the late 1980s, early 1990s after his organization was torn apart by the allegation that he had sexually harrassed one of his female instructors. This allegation later became public in an article in the liberal monthly "Mother Jones" who printed this information in a story entitled "Below the Belt" in their September/October 1990 issue. Thomas ended up doing body guard work and running his own Model Mugging Studio in Los Angeles but he no longer led the organization he had created, which became a loose collection of affiliates run by individual franchise owners. In the early to mid 1990s the affiliates started calling themselves "Impact" for reasons that still escape me. Was the name "Model Mugging" coined by Thomas unempowering and scaring away the soccer moms?

    As someone who went through the men's program in Boston Model Mugging, first under the direction of the relative hard nosed Melissa Soalt, and wildman martial artist/bouncer Mike Haynack (those are compliments Melissa and Mike:) I noticed that after Melissa sold the program to another therapist with less martial arts training, the "empowerment" aspects of the training really seemed to take over the franchise. MM properly done was always a balance of profane, hopefully realistic scenarios followed by group feedback, "how does everyone feel". The program in my humble opinion really needed tough former bouncers who had the personal fight experience to keep the scenarios realistic and to provide the properly foul mouthed muggers. "Who are you looking at ******? I'm going to come over there and skull **** you right now you homo fairy". When the empowerment types took over, they seemed to like to hire clean cut guys who were athletes to play the bad guys, but ones without the necessary real life experience that would keep their performances grounded. It was also hard to look up for self defense advice to some mugger whose qualifications were only that he was great at crew and had the proper sensitivities. I personally suspect that there was always an inherent conflict between the progressive feminists and the rougher cut bouncer types and after Thomas stopped having influence, the former really took control.

    To be fair, someone formally close to Thomas told me in the early 1990s that the founder was a wonderful instructor but a real anti-organization Ronin type and he would not have been able to administrate a united organization because of his personality even if the scandal had not happened.

    In the early 1980s Tony Blauer started doing his 'panic attack' training which appeared to basically be full contact sparring with some twists thrown in. Tony however appears to have developed his interest in such training from Bruce Lee's comments about 'dry land swimming' though he had no connection to the JKD tribe, and never pretended that he had any lineage. While I haven't been following Tony recently, it appears his most important contribution to RBSD training is that he has developed a lighter form of the protective suit which allows students to spar each other full contact and grapple, something that can't really be done with Model Mugging's "Bulletman Suits" built by Mark Morris. (The Bullet Man Suits are useful because they allow a trainer to withstand full contact full shots to the head or groin that no other form of body armor will withstand)

    Then in the 1990s across the water in merry old England, Geoff Thompson, a bouncer started shifting from telling war stories like "Watch My Back: A Bouncer's Story" (published in 1994) and started instructing in combat conditioning, and the psychology of conflict much as Tony Blauer had done. Having seen Thompson's four set tape, I can say his most unique contribution is his discussion of ways to use one's hands in a non-threatening manner to put up a 'fence' between you an a potential attacker, how to flow into an attack from the fence without telegraphing your intentions, when to do this (recognizing when their attack is about to come, and triggering your own adrenaline surge, and turning their's off. (Thompson explains this on tape better then I am doing here.)

    There are also well over a dozen gurus who claim to teach systems decended from allied WWII combatives, Carl Cestari, Bradley J. Steiner, Mr. John Kary, Charles Nelson, Bullshido's own favorite John Perkins, oh I give up, I can't keep up with them, there are so many. Then there are guys who developed military hand to hand systems like Jerry Peterson, and whats his name, who created LINE for the Marine Corps. "Its Spring, and we're the Air Farce, lets have our own H2H system! Contracts for everyone!" So lets return to the Adrenaline Conditioning people, at least I can weave their experiences into a coherent narrative.

    The people who appear to be doing the most to promote Adrenaline Stress training at the moment are Meredith Gold, who writes for Black Belt Magazine. (Yes, Strong Machine, I know you think she's full of Bullshit, point noted.) My old teachers Melissa Soalt, and Mike Haynack. Since Melissa has a VHS tape set out through Paladin Press where she teaches MM inspired techniques under the nickname "Dr. Ruthless". If you're a woman or an instructor interested in MM techniques, the two tape set "Fierce and Female" is the only complete video exposition of their methods I've heard of. (priced at $60)

    Then there is Bill Kipp, who used to instruct through Model Mugging, (1989-1999) then co-instructs with Peyton Quinn's Rocky Mountain Combat Applications Training Center (Called RMCAT). Kipp appears to have replaced Haynack at RMCAT, and also created his own system of instruction called FAST teaching "in shorter more refined modules" then RMCAT, "If RMCAT is considered the Cadillac of adrenaline stress conditioning then Fast Defense could be considered the Porsche of self defense." [Note to self this sounds really good but this analogy is basically meaningless, they just provide shorter (i.e. less) instruction then RMCAT.] Kipp also is an adviser to NAPMA and has created their "Easy Defense Programs for Adults and Children".

    So no offense to Mr. Kipp who was once nice enough to return one of my e-mails, but if you see a NAPMA school, aping RMCAT training with an expensive, eight hour course, that removes the stress inducing profanity as to not frighten off soccer moms, you'll know where it all started. Okay, I don't know the exact structure of the program, but you're average strip mall mcdojo could not teach the RMCAT technique without watering it down to avoid offending the average rugrat's parents so I strongly suspect that NAPMA with do what it usually does and superbly market a mostly useless but very money making product. :protest: Similar to their little Ninjas Urban Warrior Uniform, Little Ninjas Character Belts, and Little Ninja's Character Wraps. See http://www.napma.com/page.cfm/12,0,0,0,0,98,0,0.html

    Kipp explains on the Paladin Press Website where he's promoting a new video tape "The Missing Link: Self Protection Theory, Awareness, Avoidance, and Escalation" that the difference between MM and FAST is: "Model Mugging focused more on the emotional dynamics of assault and FAST focuses more on the adrenal stress components". As close as I can figure out Kipp and Quinn are more oriented towards the martial arts community from which they came from, as verses taking a more theraputic approach. This is positive in that they are more reality based then some of the Impact (formally MM) programs. The bad aspect is that Kipp and Quinn have now made an alliance with NAPMA which has a large intestine reputation in the Martial Arts Community, i.e. everything they touch turns to ****.

    The jury has not come in yet on this psuedo RMCAT/FAST adoptation, but I do fear the worst for the following reasons. Based on the NAPMA website, http://www.napma.com/page.cfm/6,0,0,0,0,32,0,0.html the EZ defense for Women program (sold for $399 to non-members or to NAPMA members for $299) is based on a day long or eight hour course that does not use "bulletman" instructors. Quinn himself says the use of such instructors is key, and "the primary limitation to this training method[adrenaline stress conditioning] is the scarcity if people with the skill, spirit, and character, that are demanded to put on the armor and use it effectively as an instructor. This limitation to the scenario-based training method overshadows any other by far. "(Quinn, p. 78) In my humble opinion, running an adrenal stress training session in half the time of the shortest MM course, without using its most dynamic tool, and allowing such instruction to be done by people who base their knowledge of this methodology only on a couple of tapes and a 80 something page booklet is a receipe for poor quality control. Model Mugging has met the McDojo.

    While I predict that Kipp will soon lead the adrenaline stress RBSD instruction community, Peyton Quinn has written the only theoretical exposition of this method worth reading, even if its just for the sake of disagreeing with his arguments. Quinn is probably the most articulate spokesman for this community in print. Therefore I will close my posts on the history of RBSD by reviewing some of the arguments Quinn makes in "Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning through Scenario-Based Training".

    Copyright Samuel P. Browning, 2004

    [post completed, go to post #18]
    Last edited by Sam Browning; 7/13/2008 9:41pm at .
  7. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2004 1:45am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teazer
    "Given men of equal speed, its the man who is not suprised by the others method of attack who will win. "

    Too long to tattoo, but worth remembering anyway.
    Was Yeaton quoting Fairburn or did he come up with that on his own?
    It was Sam Yeaton who made that observation.
  8. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2004 1:48am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Theories of Peyton Quinn

    In 1996 Quinn published his book, "Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning through Scenario-Based Training" (Paladin Press, Boulder Co, 1996). Until the present, this book has remained the most detailed discussion of such training that is available to the public. In his book, Quinn does not discuss how he developed his method, but since he uses the Model Mugging Bullet Suit in his program, gives credit to Bill Kipp, Mark Morris, and Melissa Soalt who all instructed in Model Mugging, (pp. 14, 74, and 76) and his former partner, Mike Haynack helped instruct MM men's classes with Melissa Soalt (whom I believe Mike eventually married), I feel safe saying that RMCAT and Quinn were heavily influenced by Matt Thomas's work though RMCAT probably developed this program further.

    Peyton's book is 175 pages long so I'm only going to only sample a few of his arguments. He says that when training people with little or no fight experience, for a street confrontation, to properly respond, the intended victim must recognize the threat in real time, not freeze, and mentally gear up to enter the fight going "from zero to 100 percent instantly. Its hard for most people to make this big transition in mind set the first time out in a real fight." He points out that if the intended victim experiences momentary denial of reality and the need to attack, they will probably lose the fight. (p. 14) To the extent that adrenaline stress conditioning teaches a student to respond to a real threat, by fighting using a preprogramed response, and not engaging in denial, I believe such training is quite useful. Similarly any program that teaches people to channel their fear rather than being controlled by it, during an attack, is helpful. As Quinn says: "Proper mind includes the ability to control and harness the positive effects of adrenal stress while suppressing the disfunctional ones." (p. 100)

    Peyton, however, makes some more controversal points which may, or may not be true, based on antidotal training evidence. He believes that adrenaline Stress Training not only gets people to properly use their initial flight or flight response, and avoid denial, but that even experienced fighters can benefit from learning how to regulate their reactions while under adrinaline stress. Quinn describes teaching one black belt taking his course at RMCAT "to control his adrenal response such that that he could relax more under the stress and use much less energy in the fights." Previously the student "threw more shots than actually connected well and was using up his energy extremely quickly. . . his mind sped up ahead of his body." (p. 129) Such experiences lead Quinn to say, that regardless of experience "this method improves everyone's self-defense and fighting ability very significantly." (p. 127)

    Quinn has some additional points that the MMA community would probably find controversial. He quotes an article in the New York Times which interviews James L. McGaugh Director of the Center for Neurobiology of Learning at the University of California at Irvine. A study produced by the center "suggests that the brain has two memory systems, one for ordinary information and one for emotionally charged information. This emotional memory system has evolved because it had great survival value." (p. 104) It appears Quinn believes that regardless of regular memory, one has to learn how to do techniques under adrenal stress in order to access them in times of crisis.

    Quinn also favors asymmetric training which is different from Boxing which is symmetric training during which both "combatants are trying to win"RMCAT instead uses asymmetric training. "We are not training people to spar. We are training people to enter people to enter and strike down the enemy." (p. 81) "If the fighter begins to enter into flailing behavior or otherwise gets into a position where the bulletman's attack is prevailing, then the scenario is stopped and the fighter is given another scenario to correct his mistake. This is important because the adrenal conditioning is strong and we must avoid conditioning mistakes into fighters. We are not training them to lose; we are training them to win." (pp. 80-81) Quinn contends that most people have the most trouble making decisions about what to do and when to "go off" under the stress of the verbal abuse that immediately preceeds most attacks, and that asymmetric training is the most effective way to overcome this "fundamental problem". (pp. 81-82)

    My biggest problem with Payton's theories is that in my individual experience going through three Model Mugging classes, the more the bulletman technique is used the less frightening it becomes, and the more distant it becomes from the stress induced by actual combat. If one knows that one is not going to get hurt, and that the bullet man is only going to do certain things to you, and react in a predictable way, then after a certain number a scenarios, this method starts to lose its fear factor, and hence its value. By the second and third class the reaction started to markedly decrease. (Quinn however says that despite his familarity with this training method he still experiences the same adrenal stress effects during a scenario as he did during his real fights, p. 96).

    Quinn claims that he does things in his program to maintain such fear (which was not done in Model Mugging). For example striking an experienced fighter in the head to produce the required amount of stress or having them attacked from behind by a second bulletman when they are watching someone else's fight sequence. (p. 80) I would disagree with Quinn however and argue that while Bulletman asymmetric training is a good beginning, students should progress to symmetric training using equipment like Blauer's suits in order to properly train a student to deal with their fear. In his 1996 book, Quinn does suggest that he was attempting to develop such lighter limited armor "for the fighter so that, in more advanced classes, the Bulletman can strike surprise shots on the fighter with more juice. This will help the fighter learn to take a stiff shot and still keep fighting and protecting himself." (p. 81)

    Quinn's book is additionally built around proving the value of the training method by contrasting its method with karate not MMA. Quinn uses the old Bruce Lee analogy of dry land swimming. One can either train a class for being dumped in the ocean by having the students practice their stokes on dry land without having the contextual framework to benefit from their practice. By contrast he compares his training to throwing people in a swimming pool over a weekend in which they are first taught to float, then tread water, then to paddle without a emphasis on technique. "Now I ask you, which group would have the most faces in the post Big Boat Ride graduation picture? The wooden floor, no water boys who studied for years or the weekend swimming pool class." (p. 111) Or perhaps the MMA boys who were already practicing laps in the pool without seeing the ocean? In other words Quinn's anology proves his method is better then a certain form of training but is not necessarly the best around.

    In conclusion while I believe that the MM/RMCAT method is useful for people in danger of freezing up, and will help most people, I think Quinn's contentions that it will make skilled fighters better is simply unproven.

    Copyright Samuel P. Browning, 2004

    [post finished, if you like what you read, rep points are always welcome :hello2: ]

    __________________
    Last edited by Sam Browning; 7/13/2008 9:42pm at .
  9. El Tejon is offline

    Yuppie Scum

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2004 9:38am

    supporting member
     Style: Mantis, WC, Escrima/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm confused. Does Siddle believe Isosceles to be unsighted fire?
    Kung fu is translated as "stand around and talk."
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2004 11:43am

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Tejon
    I'm confused. Does Siddle believe Isosceles to be unsighted fire?
    No he does not say that. But given that some of the results of the dynamic tests he cites refer to people trying to use a "one handed isosceles" under stress, I think some people were able to use their sights when doing an isosceles stance, and others just looked at the target because their technique was breaking down. The reason the isosceles breaks down less then the weaver under stress, is that the body position involves squaring on the target and thrusting both hands in front of you in a V which is a bit simpler then the weaver, however the scenarios probably could not independantly confirm whether the shooter was using their sights when they fired.
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