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  1. samadhi_fire is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 2:43pm


     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Mean it may be, but Ill tell you - it is sad when you see AN ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED MUAY THAI AND KYOKUSHIN FIGHTER riding the KM nuts. I saw that at the gym, our teams best fighter was saying how cool KM was and how it was really impssible to spar while doing KM, because that would result in ripped off eyeballs and crushed nutsacks.

    That sort of thing depresses me.
    Well... Maybe because he's your team's best fighter, that's why he could say it, i.e. he is already very proficient in his base style. The impression of Krav Maga that I get is that it's good and you can make it work if you have already mastered a good base style with realistic sparring. Somewhat in the same category as Aikido.
  2. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 2:45pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think they claim they are grandmasters. I've only seen that term applied to Imi Sde-Or.

    I don't know all the history of the Krav lineage in terms of the separateness of the schools. Keep in mind that while Eyal and Imi were the authors of the standard text on Krav Maga, Darren was a technical consultant and assisted in the English translation of the text. So as far as I know, there isn't a full-fledged animosity between them, and I certainly wouldn't give a **** if someone trained IKMF-style Krav vs the more American version of it.

    ---

    How does a non-Jewish Brazilian know of Mazel Tov? :)
  3. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 2:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by samadhi_fire
    1) Well... Maybe because he's your team's best fighter, that's why he could say it, i.e. he is already very proficient in his base style.

    2) The impression of Krav Maga that I get is that it's good and you can make it work if you have already mastered a good base style with realistic sparring. Somewhat in the same category as Aikido.
    1) I said he is our best fighter, I never said he was a genius.

    2) Interesting. So you become a master of a kick-ass style, you earn a lot of experience by practicing that style, and AFTER you become a good fighter (by means of that style) you can make another style work, and kick ass with it. Something you could do already because, you know, you had previous experience. Nice theory, Ill think about it.

    Seriously, I do believe some "self defense" techniques can be useful to experienced fighters. But teaching those techniques alone to people without fighting experience is, in my opinion, to invite disaster ("sure I can take this guy with a knive, the kung fu rabbi taught me how!").
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  4. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 2:51pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bodar
    I just want to know what the is "pluck" ?
    Imagine you're being choked from the front with both hands. Essentially, your instinctual response is to seize their wrists or forearms and try to disengage the grip. Krav enhances the reflex by training you to seize both wrists/forearms with a five-fingered grip (your hands are essentially cupped) and yank forcefully downward (it's more like a strike than a pull) to get the hands off the throat. From that point, there's any number of techniques you can do to counterattack. The one I train involves elbowing them in the face after the grip is disengaged.
  5. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 2:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_steve
    I don't think they claim they are grandmasters. I've only seen that term applied to Imi Sde-Or.

    I don't know all the history of the Krav lineage in terms of the separateness of the schools. Keep in mind that while Eyal and Imi were the authors of the standard text on Krav Maga, Darren was a technical consultant and assisted in the English translation of the text. So as far as I know, there isn't a full-fledged animosity between them, and I certainly wouldn't give a **** if someone trained IKMF-style Krav vs the more American version of it.

    ---

    How does a non-Jewish Brazilian know of Mazel Tov? :)
    I was kidding about the grandmasters, but I suppose you dont know much about the infamous wing chun lineage wars.

    As for the brazilian KM schools, I talked to people who go to the brazilian KM school, and some of them have very strange ideas (I made a thread called "krav maga and my stupid cousin" if you are interested). They certainly do not spar as a rule, and the only class I watched consisted mostly of some cardio exercises, some push ups, and some weird aikido-like defenses against wrist grabs drills.

    About mazel tov - hey, my father is a jew, so as a bastard (in many senses of the word) it is my duty to remember the greatest number of jewish jokes I can, and many of those include the phrase mazel tov.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  6. samadhi_fire is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 3:24pm


     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Interesting. So you become a master of a kick-ass style, you earn a lot of experience by practicing that style, and AFTER you become a good fighter (by means of that style) you can make another style work, and kick ass with it. Something you could do already because, you know, you had previous experience. Nice theory, Ill think about it.

    Seriously, I do believe some "self defense" techniques can be useful to experienced fighters. But teaching those techniques alone to people without fighting experience is, in my opinion, to invite disaster ("sure I can take this guy with a knive, the kung fu rabbi taught me how!").
    Not so much as make the style work but to use it to complement your own base style. I mean most of these styles get flak for not being realistic and churning out people who can't fight. That's due to their training metholodogy. They don't spar so they're not exposed to an actual fighting environment. When they do need to use their skills, they can't because they're thrown into the deep end without actually having swum before.

    I could see how some Aikido movements could complement my Kyokushin fighting style. And like you mentioned, having some "self defense" techniques would also be useful.
  7. KickAHippie is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2004 9:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: American Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a friend that goes to a Krav Maga school here in Kansas. I have been trying to get him to go to my MMA school with me. He was interested to go mainly because the Krav place doesn't offer much in the way of grappling. Well he happened to mention it to his instructor at the next class. The instructor, I guess fearing that he would lose a student, tells him that he didn't need any of that grappling stuff. In their system they teach you how to get back up so you don't have to fight on the ground. My friend is about 165 pounds. Most average size men with no training could hold him down and GnP him if they want but this guy has him believing that he can just stand up. He then went on to tell him that he also didn't want to grapple because it will hurt you to roll around on concrete and broken glass. I am wondering if this is a common thread among Krav Maga schools or if he just has a shitty instructor. If this is common it sounds damn close to bullshido.
  8. pachanga is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/26/2004 11:26am

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing hobbyist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny, I was planning on posting review of my own (although i've only been doing Krav for 2 months) before I noticed this thread. I'll just tack on my thoughts to this one.

    Infowise, my Krav school is part of Eyal Yanilov's federation, not Darren Levine's, about which I know nothing.

    I have to say that so far I really enjoy Krav, more than I expected to. I am also surprised at the cries of Bullshido it attracts on this forum, as what I do seems to have a lot of what most people here think an MA should have in it: stand-up, grappling and sparring. When I started I was expecting a "system" or whatever, but what I've been doing basicaly seems to be a combination of boxing/kick-(Thai?)-boxing, grappling and self-defence drills.


    Quote Originally Posted by JDC845
    The instructor, I guess fearing that he would lose a student, tells him that he didn't need any of that grappling stuff. In their system they teach you how to get back up so you don't have to fight on the ground.... He then went on to tell him that he also didn't want to grapple because it will hurt you to roll around on concrete and broken glass. I am wondering if this is a common thread among Krav Maga schools or if he just has a shitty instructor. If this is common it sounds damn close to bullshido.
    I can't say whether it's common, having only attended my Krav school. It's definitely now what we learn. Our instructor emphasises getting up as quickly as possible (and ways to get up) if you can if it goes to the ground, which I think is good advice in a self-defence situation. But we still do plenty of groundwork. I'd say we spend at least as much time doing groundwork as self-defence techniques and we recently did a weekend seminar devoted entirely to it. My only complaint about groundwork is that we don't do enough dedicated groundwork sparring (apparently I missed some recently though); most of what we do starts from a given position and once we have practced the technique a few times we then do it the same way, but with resistance; when I asked about this I was told we do do some but that "Krav isn't Judo"; which sounded worryingly like "we train for the street, not the ring" or whatever. That said in stand-up sparring, clinching, grappling and continuing the fight if it goes to the ground is very much encouraged.

    There is a lot of sparring; very early on I and another beginner did some supervised light sparring (very, very light - basically just trying to tap each other's heads, kicks to guarded groins etc). I joined the higher grades at my last lesson for some harder sparring - what I was doing was still pretty light but we were trying to hit each other nonetheless. The senior students (the school is pretty new so most of these guys aren't actually that senior) did some of what they called "full contact" sparring. It didn't look like what I would call full contact - I don;t get the impression theyu were trying to knock each other out - but they were going at each other pretty damn hard; certainly bloody nose strength. Our instructor does a lot of hard sparring as part of his own training and I expect to see a lot more of it in our classes.

    Some of the self-defence techniques are pretty silly, especially the stuff against guns and knives (although in the knife stuff we do at least do knife "sparring", with one guy attacking with a wooden knife with lots of resitance and the other guy defending, which adds at least more realism than the knife defences I learned in JuJitsu). That doesn't particularly bother me as I don't have much faith in any weapons defences and didn;t have very high expectations. What does bother me is that it isn't emphasised often enough that no matter how good you are, you are in really bad shape against someone with a weapon unarmed and that such situations should be avoided or run away from if at all possible. A definite failing I think and I worry that the instructor and some of the more senior students may have an inflated idea of what they could do unarmed against a knife. I also preferred some of the defences I learned in JuJitsu against graps, strangels etc; although much of the Krav stuff seems fine.

    So far I am also unhappy with the kicking work - we've done some kicking but been taught very little technique. But then again I've only tained about 28 hours so far, and there have been some noises made about doing more kicking stuff soon.

    I'm very happy with the hand work; it's very much boxing style punches along with boxing ducks, dodges, parries etc. All good as far as I'm concerned. The workouts/warm-ups are pretty tough and unlike the original poster's class, we do a fari amount of stuff that focuses on building specific muscle groups as well as just cardio type things (at least I think they do; my knowledge of physiology is meagre).

    On the orginial poster's point that you could do all these things better if you went to the root - ie took a boxing class, a thai boxing class and a BJJ class, I think that's definitely right. You would become much more skilled that way, and I am considering doing some boxing in the future. But for the moment having them all under one roof is much more convenient and cheaper for me, and I don't have the time or dedication to get seriously involved in a proper MMA class (and am put off by the competitive focus of most of them). Someone who trains hard in MMA or cross trains in MT and BJJ is defnitely going to emerge a much better fighter than someone who trains in Krav alone, but I think Krav is a very good way to learn some basic fighting skills, get fit etc. I think MMA-lite is perhaps an apt description of what I've done so far and I'm quite content with that; it may get less "lite" as it continues.

    Ultimately what I've taken away from what I've done so far (which really isn;t that much) is that it really is about the instructor to a large degree. The stories of aerobics instructors who've done one seminar teaching Krav are pretty horrific, as are those about the ones who teach that you don;t need grappling skills etc. Clearly there are some very bad Krav instructors out there. To teach our style of Krav you need a black belt in another art and have to complete and pass a two week Krav course with the chief instructor and train with him regularly; not at all enough IMO, as for example a BB in TKD and a two week Krav course don't qualify you to teach grappling, for example. Luckily, our instructor has done Krav for many years, isvery experienced in another art, and has done a lot of crosstraining as well as trained with a lot of respected British fighting types. In his marketing stuff he does emphasises the Krav hype, but in class he routinely teaches us what he considers to be better techniques than the "classical" Krav syllabus ones alongside the Krav syllabus and throws in loads of submission wrestling stuff etc etc. He aso isn't an IDF nutrider which is a big relief to me. The students don't seem to be either; there are other classes taught by ex-IDF people in London who proabbly attract that kind more than we do. My advice for anyone considering taking it up would be to ignore the marketing (as good or bad), and check out the instructor's experience and a few classes.

    Hopefully I will continue to enjoy it.

    Cheers,

    Pach.
    Last edited by pachanga; 11/26/2004 11:50am at .
  9. Goldust is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2004 5:19pm


     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JDC845
    tells him that he didn't need any of that grappling stuff.
    Typically the people that you hear saying this the most are the ones that have the least knowledge of it. Since they possess no grappling skills, and have no desire to learn any, it is worthless and unnecessary in their opinion. This is an attitude that I have experienced before:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5436

    Quote Originally Posted by JDC845
    He then went on to tell him that he also didn't want to grapple because it will hurt you to roll around on concrete and broken glass.
    It will hurt a lot more to get mounted and punched in the face repeatedly because you have no idea how to get out other than naively thinking that you can Just stand up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDC845
    I am wondering if this is a common thread among Krav Maga schools or if he just has a shitty instructor.
    It may not be the official party line among all Krav Maga schools but in my experience it has been the norm for the few Krav Maga schools that I have heard about locally. And it is definitely the norm for the other RBSD schools in my area.

    Sadly for the students of these places the Were deadly and cant be taken down. mentality has resulted in at least two students that I've heard of getting badly injured in street fights possibly brought about due to their overconfidence. One of my students knows these guys and told the following incidents to me. One guy got into an argument in a bar which then escalated and resulted in him getting his face busted open from getting hit with a glass pitcher. When asked if he was able to use any of the stuff that he had learned his answer was I didnt have time.

    The second guy, who two weeks earlier had been arguing with my student about how All of that mma and grappling stuff is all bullshit you wouldnt even be able to take me down. Went out and got into a street fight and (surprise!) got taken down and when he went for the other guys balls all he did was piss the guy off and he ended up getting pummeled even worse and put into the hospital with a partially collapsed lung and head trauma. (I wonder if he still thinks that he cant be taken down now.)
  10. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/28/2004 6:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_steve
    As for sparring Krav: There is a great amount of emphasis on "high-percentage" techniques such as hard strikes to eyes, knees, and such. One way to get out of a front bearhug if your arms are free is to jam your thumbs into their eyes and keep pressing till they let go.
    Hard strikes to the eyes are high percentage?
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