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  1. OC Kid is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2004
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:26pm


     Style: Karate/Kempo/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like that quote. I guess I can bastardize a part of it and say....
    That if you wants students to represent you and your knowledge and carry on your name when you pass then If your name is equal to being cookie cutter milk toast bitch then you can do what Graden is saying..

    But if you want your name spoken with respect and honor go for quality not quanity you follow your heart and do what is best for the students.

    I guess its all about the squilla to some folks. Ive read where Graden has said Only white to Black Belt matter nothing in between. So you can make up as many belt ranks as you want and charge the hell out of the students for testing and test them every month or so after all it doesnt matter til they make B/B make them think they are really learning to defend themselves give themm a false sense of pride

    ...... Kind of like a McDojo..drive up in your Yugo talk to the Sensei in the box and say..."yea Uh Id like a black belt with cheese hold the knowledge and the dedication and could you add a couple of stripes on the side" any thing for you honny..Oh yea could get my wife one to and hold the stripes.....
    Last edited by OC Kid; 11/24/2004 3:29pm at .
  2. 5FingazofDeath is offline
    5FingazofDeath's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/MMA/JKDC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In order to be consider a "master" in a field like plumbing or carpentry you have to be in it for what - like 6 years? Or is it 8? Anyway a black belt should be the master of the art right? So you would think that it would take longer than that if your only practicing for 4 hours a week as opposed to 40 hours a week.

    A black belt shouldnt be for hobbyists, or soccer moms, or anyone else who doesnt want to put in the time and work for it. It should be only for the people who seriously dedicate themselves to their arts.
  3. Miguksaram is offline
    Miguksaram's Avatar

    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My whole thing is the fact that he puts so much emphasize on the black belt. Why should you consider yourself a good instructor if you have 20 black belts as opposed to two black belts. I would rather have 20 quality low belts that make other instructors come up to you and say "Damn, your low rank student would wipe the floor with my black belt student, why isn't he a black belt yet?"
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  4. Peter H. is offline

    Professional Wrestler

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    San Angelo, TX
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    2,470

    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:34pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin69
    I remember a time when hours of instruction was the deciding factor for WHEN you took any belt test.
    Dang skippy. Your ass will have been on my mats at least 90 hours of in class time (takes about 6 months minimum) before I look at you for promotion, and then you test, if I decide you are ready to test.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  5. Ashe is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:50pm


     Style: Crosstraining/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TylerDurden
    Not everyone should be able to get a black belt, and there is nothing wrong with high standards. That's what is supposed to make it an accomplishment. I honestly doubt I will ever get a black belt in BJJ. The reason belts mean so little is because they are so easy to get in some arts/schools. That being said, this topic has been done to death.
    Rodrigo Vaghi, one of Rickson Gracie's top students, told me it took him 9 years to achieve his BB. This is a man who had previously studied under one of Brazil's top judo instructors from an early age, and who did well in competitions. Why should it take any less time for a less-dedicated American student?

    Rodrigo is no Bullshido, though less well known than his teachers. Go to www.submissionjiujitsu.com for info on his school and competition team.

    BTW - I don't study at his school, though I've had the chance to attend some of his seminars. Others have told me that his blue belts and above are among the best they've seen. In 2002 I watched one of his blue belts spank a Carlson Gracie brown belt in an exhibition match at the Midwest Submission Grappling Championships, a NAGA event. He's a great teacher and demanding trainer.

    High standards? You bet!

    :glasses9:
  6. j416to is offline

    Middleweight

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    Feb 2004
    Location
    Canada
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 6:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Geeze, I'm sorry but I have to disagree, absolutely, with everyone here.

    But before I give you my reasons, here is my teaching background:

    Ph.D Aerospace Engineering, Cornell University (3.5 years)
    NASA Senior Research Engineer (8 years)

    University Engineering Professor, 10 years
    Graduated 1 Ph.D student, 15 M.Sc. Students
    Instructor to over 2,000 B.Sc. Students

    Muay Thai, 3.5 years, beginner level instructor (conditioning and basic drills, slightly above the soccer mom level)

    Father, 5 month old son

    In all cases, it is not my job is to shape students, or my son, into living images of myself. As an instructor, as a parent, it is my job to help my students, help my son, obtain the tools that will allow them to reach the next levels in their lifes, the next levels in their training.

    If you are an instructor, if you are a teacher, your success is measured by the students that you've graduated, by the students who's lives you've touched, enriched and encouraged.

    If you're a teacher, and you've only graduated a couple of black belts in your career, what the hell have you been doing? I assume we're not talking about something like a 5th degree black belt, which yes, might be equivalent to a Ph.D. But a 1st degree black belt should be equivalent to a M.Sc., someone capable of instructing beginners. Are you all telling me that its okay for someone to have run a school for some 20 odd years, and to have only produced one or two people who are competent enough to teach a class of beginners???? That's outrageous! That is really Bullshido!

    If you're not graduating students because you really believe you're maintaining a high quality standard, then you're teaching something that is totally useless, something so totally specialize and esoteric that can never really be tested, used and refined by anyone else.

    Students graduate from West Point, University, from yes, NASA's Astronaut Program, because there is something useful to be done with this education, because these students are learning skills that will be tested, refined and applied, later on. Not because they've pleased their instructors with enough ass kissing and financial support to be finally released from their eternally subservient positions.

    If you're not awarding your very best students a back belt, students that have been training with you for many, many years, acknowledging that they are competent enough to train beginners for christ sake!, than you're either holding them back for selfish reasons, financial, political or otherwise, or you're just a really lousy teacher, because your best students must really suck.

    Did I piss all of you guys off with this? I hope so. Because your students, the students that sweat and bleed and take valuable time out of their lives to learn something from you, to support your dreams of furthering your MA, deserve better that this.
  7. PeedeeShaolin is offline
    PeedeeShaolin's Avatar

    Co-Founder, Retired Admin

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 6:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're not awarding your very best students a back belt, students that have been training with you for many, many years, acknowledging that they are competent enough to train beginners for christ sake!, than you're either holding them back for selfish reasons, financial, political or otherwise, or you're just a really lousy teacher, because your best students must really suck.
    I have to disagree here and the only reason I'm going to do so is because of the part where you said "students that have been training with you for many, many years,".

    The truth is that people earn a black belt in only a few short years, sometimes 2 years or less, while training 2 hours a week. Thats a very horrible standard to have and its almost the absolute rule today.

    If your students HAVE been training for years and years I would agree with you, but the color of cloth around your waist has very little to do with your ability or the reasons behind training.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  8. PeedeeShaolin is offline
    PeedeeShaolin's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 6:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    John Graden also worked for NAPMA and was one of NAPMA's "founding fathers".

    Now NAPMA can help schools to run in a more professional way, but since this industry is TOTALLY unregulated it can also allow terrible instructors to teach like they have a wealth of iformation when in reality all they're doing is following a sales pitch and someone elses curriculum like a robot.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  9. PizDoff is online now

    .

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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    18,598

    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 6:32pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is a really good thread.
    I cannot believe people are sent that, generation or lack of generation of black belts has nothing to do with success of an instructor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    Nothing pisses me off like idiotic research methodology. And here we go again. Did it occur to you, Mr. Fuckface, that people attending the livelihood of the people at NASA and WestPoint will be derived from their successes there? MA is, by and large, a hobby for most people.

    What if WestPoint only offered four hours of classes a week (and its students had little outside time to study/practice)? Should they should be able to graduate people within three years?

    Ensuring the same "graduation" rate as any sort of full-time training or schooling would involve watering down your standards enough to ensure that a black belt could be attained by any competent individual who put in four hours a week for a few years. Super.

    Here's an idea for a new article: What if your black belts suck ass and disgrace martial arts as a whole?
    This is a REALLY REALLY good post.
    I'll read more later after I complete some assignments.
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  10. j416to is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 6:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeedeeShaolin
    I have to disagree here and the only reason I'm going to do so is because of the part where you said "students that have been training with you for many, many years,".

    The truth is that people earn a black belt in only a few short years, sometimes 2 years or less, while training 2 hours a week. Thats a very horrible standard to have and its almost the absolute rule today.

    If your students HAVE been training for years and years I would agree with you, but the color of cloth around your waist has very little to do with your ability or the reasons behind training.
    Yes, obviously you're correct. Graduating black belt in only a few short years, with 2 hrs a week training, is garbage. But so is only graduating a few black belts in a lifetime. A 1st level black belt is only an acknowledgement that they can teach the beginners, not open their own schools. To do that they would have to have been awarded a higher level black belt, something like 4th or 5th.
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