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  1. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 8:10pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Whenever I get my competition footage, you'll all get to some some stellar guard pulling.
    Iím going to come from a different viewpoint here for a moment and please donít take offence Aesopian as Iím just using your comment for a starting point to further discussion.

    My question here is why is it that many BJJ practitioners train to pull the guard from the knees? You are putting yourself in an inferior position from the outset and in many competitions you loose points for doing it. I can understand if you want to practice the guard but canít you just start your rolling from that position as a situational drill instead of learning better ways or techniques to get yourself there? Maybe itís just a difference in philosophy but I would think you would be trying to go for a dominant position as opposed to an inferior one.

    Donít get me wrong, now and again you are going to pull guard to practice but what Iím talking about are the guys who always pull guard. Too me itís being lazy if itís not done with intent. Iíll admit when I roll I sometimes put myself in positions such as letting them take the back etc. but I always do it with the intent that ďtoday I am going to let people take my back so I can practice escapes.Ē Some guys just always pull guard and they lay on their backs working but not working too hard. ďLa la la, maybe Iíll sweep or try this or that la la la.Ē Iím sure youíve all seen the type.

    One common response is that it teaches you how to go to the guard when you need it. I disagree. If you are in a position where you can either go to the guard or go back to your knees shouldnít the option to go back to a neutral position be a primary focus? From a neutral position (knees) you can either work for a dominant position, stand back up etc.

    Example, you are in the middle of a scramble and find yourself in a quasi knee/guard position where you can work for either one. (This plays along with the above theory of learning to pull guard from the knees because it helps). Do you go for the guard, a neutral position or work harder for a dominant position?

    Two reasons I posted this (and no, one was not to be an ass):

    1. When I went to watch Ericís CSW class the other week I was watching a guy who just kept pulling guard on everybody he rolled with. It didnít appear that size was a factor because he did it whether his opponent was big or small. It also didnít look like he was doing it because he was ďtraining itĒ because he was catching people in subs regularly. To me it just seemed to be lazy. He was resting there, playing light and was looking around to see who was watching him. Kinda strange and it struck me as the typical stuff I see in BJJ competition and some MMAís. Maybe it was a weak part of his game that needed work but it didn't look it.

    2. I used to be that guy. When I was training back in the day under Royce I would always play from the guard. One reason is that because of my size, I was often forced to play there because I would just end up there by default. However, I used to pull people there as well. It wasnít until later when I was training under a different instructor that I learned a different training philosophy. Most of the time when I transitioned to guard I didnít really need to transition to guard. It was just the easier way to goÖ the lazy way. Once in the guard I would work for the sweep to get a better position. Well, I could have been in that better position had I worked harder in the first place by not resigning myself to guard. Just a thought for discussionÖ :happy:
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    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  2. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 9:29pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You've made some good points RedElvis.
    I agree that people should always try to get on top in a competition or a fight, and the BJJ points system reflects this i.e. two points for a reversal where you end up on top.

    I also agree with your point about people who only ever pull guard. I think they'd change their ways if their partner was allowed to punch them in the face, and they'd probably try and work to get on top. With regards to these types of people, they generally won't advance too far through the ranks though because their instructor will want them to have a more well-rounded game. It's okay to be a purple belt with an awesome triangle or armbar, but by the time someone gets to brown belt they should be extremely dangerous from underneath and on top.

    For myself, the strongest part of my game is my top game. So I'm generally always trying to work my guard. Now if I'm wrestling someone good then I don't want to do it half-assed and let the guy get around my guard. I'll get my grips from "head to head", pull guard and make him work to pass while I try and submit or sweep him. If I'm wrestling someone that I think is a real threat to me then I'll work my attacks from the knees to put him on his back so I can work my natural passing game.

    I don't see anything wrong with pulling guard and learning to do it properly, as long as that person also puts in the time to learn how to put someone on their back and doesn't neglect their top game.
    Last edited by JohnnyS; 11/23/2004 9:32pm at .
  3. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 10:13pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RedElvis
    2. I used to be that guy. When I was training back in the day under Royce I would always play from the guard. One reason is that because of my size, I was often forced to play there because I would just end up there by default. However, I used to pull people there as well. It wasnít until later when I was training under a different instructor that I learned a different training philosophy. Most of the time when I transitioned to guard I didnít really need to transition to guard. It was just the easier way to goÖ the lazy way. Once in the guard I would work for the sweep to get a better position. Well, I could have been in that better position had I worked harder in the first place by not resigning myself to guard. Just a thought for discussionÖ :happy:
    You just described me to a tee... Well done, very insightful.. I did it in a comp and it cost me the fight.
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
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  4. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 10:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    For myself, the strongest part of my game is my top game. So I'm generally always trying to work my guard. Now if I'm wrestling someone good then I don't want to do it half-assed and let the guy get around my guard. I'll get my grips from "head to head", pull guard and make him work to pass while I try and submit or sweep him. If I'm wrestling someone that I think is a real threat to me then I'll work my attacks from the knees to put him on his back so I can work my natural passing game.

    I don't see anything wrong with pulling guard and learning to do it properly, as long as that person also puts in the time to learn how to put someone on their back and doesn't neglect their top game.


    I must say that my game improved ten fold once I realized and changed how often I was in the guard both from voluntarily going there and from being forced there. I was told for a month that whenever I wound up in the guard that I had to either sweep my opponent ASAP or kick out and go back to knees/standing. This helped tremendously and people are totally surprised when you go from guard to knees. Itís very unorthodox for as simple as it sounds. It also works well when people are passing and itís a good tool in an MMA/Vale Tudo context.

    I guess what I failed to mention earlier is that my guard game was excellent but my top game was lagging. This is what helped me improve on top. Also it helped beat the laziness out of me and helped me to go back to using my natural attributes, which was my quickness, speed and endurance.
    .
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    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 10:32pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good points RedElvis. No offense taken. You can't tell over the internet, but that was a semi-sarcastic "stellar", because I know pulling guard isn't the best thing to do. I just know that if you want to get guard, I did it effectively.

    I have every intention of learning proper takedowns and learning to fight from the top. It was just my first tournament after 6 months of BJJ, and my guard work is my strongest point, so it would have been dumb for me to suddenly try to fight from the top. I also went straight to an armbar in my first fight, and straight to rear mount in my second, so I didn't actually sit around in the lazy guard. :icon_cool

    Last night all I really tried to do was pass guard to side control. I got swept and choked and everything that comes with fighting someone's guard (not to mention a blue, purple, brown and black belts' guard), but it's all good. I always enjoy the sick pleasures of playing a "heavy" top game because I usually weigh less than anyone I'm fighting.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 11/23/2004 10:43pm at .
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 10:41pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Before my first tournament my senior coach told me to "play the top and go for the submission".

    So, of course, in round 1 I **** up my uchimata and end up underneath the guy, get my guard back and triangle him.
  7. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 10:53pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    RedElvis, as you say it is easy to get lazy from the guard and I sometimes can't be bothered and just pull guard on my opponent. Funnily enough, when I just work on my passing game, I actually get far more aggressive in both my game and as a person.
  8. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 11:01pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shumagorath
    Before my first tournament my senior coach told me to "play the top and go for the submission".

    So, of course, in round 1 I **** up my uchimata and end up underneath the guy, get my guard back and triangle him.
    I have won almost all of my matches from the guard as it was always my strong point when I was competing. I even beat a guy who is now a black belt in BJJ who has a very famous last name using a triangle from the guard. He tried an old school pass and left one arm in and one out which was very foolish of him. Iíve no doubt if we were to meet again he would kill me in seconds.
    .
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    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  9. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2004 11:11pm

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     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    RedElvis, as you say it is easy to get lazy from the guard and I sometimes can't be bothered and just pull guard on my opponent. Funnily enough, when I just work on my passing game, I actually get far more aggressive in both my game and as a person.
    I still go to it after rolling for a long time because it's safe. When I feel like my wind is coming back then I go for subs, sweeps and knees again. I just have a mental thing now against pulling guard on purpose. It was beat out of me for too many years ironically by one of Rigan's black belts and I just realized you are of the same origin as far as BJJ is concerned. Very nice!
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  10. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 3:18am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My top game is my best so I am really working on having a more well rounded game. But when you start kneeling, I view not pulling guard as time consuming and boring. If no one is getting the edge then I just pull cause I get bored.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
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