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  1. Antagony is offline
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    Unemployed

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 12:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Filthy Jailhouse Tactics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jaychiu forgot to mention that in case of the presence of those deadly objects, it is in the grappler's favor because he can use his opponent as a nice pillow between himself and the harsh environment.

    "Oh wow, there are some used heroin needles over there! I should cover them up with this guy's back!"
    MY NAME IS ANTAGONY I SUCK AT COMBAT SPORTS KTHX

    "blahblahblah, but I don't think I'm going to train tonight."
    "Fag."
    "Well if that were true, then I'd really REALLY want to come train!"
  2. Bizzaro Root is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 4:08pm


     Style: Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    I don't know how to put this in authoritative prose, but here is some anecdotal information on ground fighting I got last night from a brown belt named "Crazy" James. He used to do all sorts of challenge matches and fight in parking lots because people would insult his jiu-jitsu (as advertised on his baseball cap), "Your kung fu is no good" style.

    James told a story about a kung fu fighter challenging him, and before their fight saying "I'm going to dig your eyes out." Oh nos, the dreaded eye gouge! The ground fighter will be defenseless!

    Actually, here was James' solution: Clinch, close his eyes and get a takedown, and continue the fight on the ground with his eyes shut. He said he got his face scratched like hell from a bunch of face rakes, but his eyes were fine AND he choked the guy anyway.

    He also fought some bastard who tried eye gouges, finger breaks and other such "dirty" tactics, and all that ended up happening was James got pissed off and broke the guy's arm.

    If someone wants to turn this into a formal answer to the "Oh nos teh eye gouge!" question, I guess this just adds to the idea that "dirty tricks" are not the fight stoppers like people suspect, and that an experienced ground fighter will be able to dominate and control someone to such a degree as to make these attacks ineffectual.

    dude thats guys cool as ****, you take what he says as word. hes got some sneaky moves.
    Eduardo "Why'd you stop."

    Me "I was kicked in the head by the guys sparring next to me."

    Eduardo "Ino what happened but i didnt say you could stop."

    Me "Um.. I guess I keep going."

    Eduardo "You dont stop until i say stop, you dont get tired until i say your tired, keep going."


    Originally posted by Ralek
    My cousin gave me some tapes of him doing tkd. I learned from those tapes. When I beat up an Akido instructor, and made him take rest breaks, I used TKD. I learned Bjj from watching ufc and pride and then I copied them and wrestled my cousin for practice. I choked him out and he tapped.
  3. ImAlrdyNum is offline
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    aahhh...the colors

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 4:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Sub Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually it's called a "double leg" or a "single leg". You "shoot a double leg" or you "shoot a single leg". It's not "a shot".
    Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that kickboxing is commonly known as fighting while grappling simply isn't. - Osiris
  4. TCDD is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 5:38pm


     Style: FMA/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it all sounds rather sensible to me (im a groundfighting noobie though)

    the only think i would take issue with :(aside from the point already raised about the need to grapple to disarm-from a stickfighters mentality its just not true-and that carries over to empty hand) is the statement that there is no evidence that striking is better than grappling against multiple opponents, this is patantly untrue, and i could provide a lot of anecdotal evidence to that effect (unfortunately not video, cant get it from work) as by the very nature of grappling you will be preventing yourself from taking the best course of action, ie the trusty nike-fu, also by grappling you would be concentrating on one opponent as opposed to (as many a traditional english fight starts) decking one guy before going after his mate (or legging it) as he looks at his buddy going down, there is also the facts of if you grapple one man, his mate can join in, where as if you are striking, and have reasonable footwork, you can play the position so that only one (assuming two) opponent can attack you, where as if you take one down the other can do what he will

    im trying to keep it realistic, no one can fight 7 opponents, but 2 is fairly common (muggers generally work in pairs at least where i work)

    if you can seperate them long enough to do a fairly devastating standing move on one, then grappling is fine, but as soon as you go to ground, in my opinion, in those circumstances, you have lost the initiative and half your options.

    Feel free to disagree, just trying to add something different to the discussion.
  5. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 5:45pm

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     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regarding multiple opponents, the possibility of going to the ground is equal if not more. So, you may as well learn how to ground fight so that you have some kind of a chance if and when it goes there.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  6. TCDD is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 5:57pm


     Style: FMA/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you please qualify that statement?

    i would argue totally to the contrary, as against multiple opponents, you will be doing everything you can to stay standing to avoid a stomping, and to expedite your escape, where as against a single opponent you can take them down and play on your terms, on your turf.

    from seeing the end result of many streetfights (if you can call them fights) the only time someone ends up on the ground is for the opposition to finish what their hands started with thier feet, and it isnt pretty.

    Basically if you end up on the floor against multiple attackers, be them strikers, grapplers, jugglers, preachers, gamblers, whatever your style, you be fucked.
  7. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 6:02pm

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     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TCDD
    i would argue totally to the contrary, as against multiple opponents, you will be doing everything you can to stay standing to avoid a stomping, and to expedite your escape, where as against a single opponent you can take them down and play on your terms, on your turf.
    Listen, asshole, you can want to stay on your feet as much as you want. If the opponent wants you on the ground, multiple or not, you'll likely end up there unless you have some grappling skills. A group of people will probably want to take you down to the ground, so you better be damn good to stay on your feet and know something for the time when they DO end up taking you down. Streetfights are not kung fu movies, where you can pick and choose if you want to end up on the ground or not. It's likely you'll just end up there.


    Basically if you end up on the floor against multiple attackers, be them strikers, grapplers, jugglers, preachers, gamblers, whatever your style, you be fucked.
    You're pretty much fucked if you end up fighting against multiple attackers anyway. I'm not saying one should take the fight to the ground, but that one better know how to fight from the ground so there is some kind of fighting chance when it does go there.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
  8. TCDD is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 6:23pm


     Style: FMA/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is no need to resort to personal insults, if you cannot hold an intelligent informed conversation, or are so scared to have your beliefs challenged you have to resort to insults, then just say so, and ill go get you some crayola crayons and you can go draw with the other kids whilst the adults talk.

    you are so entrenched in your way that you are never going to listen, if you walk into every situation with a set idea of how it will end then it will invariably go tits up, its the difference between being prepared and being presumptuous, I am prepared to grapple if i have to, but i dont presume im going to, because as soon as you do, you exclude half your tactics

    from most fights i have seen the average joe in the street knows **** all about groundwork but they know enough about throwing a punch know it works, and when you do go to ground with 1 or 2 people fighting withy no real MA training (life 90% of your piss head bastards), no one EVER EVER follows you down in real life and tries for a submission, they stamp on your head with doc martin boots until your ear drums burst and synovial fluid pisses out your nose

    when you have seen someone in that state, you never want to see it again.



    PS
    you'll likely end up there unless you have some grappling skills
    ^^ that contradicts what you said earlier.
  9. Boogyman is offline
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    Professional Fighter

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 6:52pm

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     Style: MMA (and others)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The best thing to work in most situation on t3h str33t5 is to use whatever you have at hand, your environment, and your brains. If it means that you go to the ground, then well you better know how to deal with that situation. If it means that you are standing and trying (yes TRYING) to trade punches/kicks with a group of attackers...well you will end up on the ground UNconsious (sp?) or dead. Plus IME I have found that being hyper aggressive works very well, and if someone gets close enough for you to do some damage...throw the fucker though a plate glass window, or use thier head as a hammer against that wall. It just seems that no matter where you are/what your doing, if you use your head (and being a little comfortable in the situation...read relaxed...read have training in...) you more than likely will not only survive, but you may even be successful. And yes I have faced and won against multiple attackers, I have also gotten my ass handed to me by multiple attackers, and through that experience I have distilled this little tidbit.
    [A friend once told me he found Jennifer Connelly hot.
    "Would she still be hot if she were melting in a car wreck, like at the end of Pollock, smelling of burnt hair and bubbling intestines?" I asked.
    "Oh hell yeah."
    "How? How would you even have sex with her?"
    "Just let her cool and fold her over, like an omolette."
    Since then we've always had this universal sign for Jennifer Connelly, it's like an "opening a book" motion, only backwards. And we are often known to softly remark "....like an omolette".]--boyd
  10. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Genius

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 9:26pm

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     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=TCDD]There is no need to resort to personal insults/QUOTE]

    Listen, asshole, you live in a dream world where a person can simply choose not to fight on the ground or never be taken down. You watch too many kung fu movies. If you can't handle the insults, go to another forum, sissy. We're giving reasons for why a person should learn how to grapple, and dispelling myths about grappling. One of the myths is something you have obviously bought into. Multiple opponents does not mystically make striking the holy fucking grail of fighting, even when fighting multiple people, grappling is still something one should be skilled at, ground fighting is something one should be skilled at. Fighting multiple people does not render groundfighting useless, if anything, it will give you a chance if the fight ends up on the ground.

    What you want from a fight and what you get are two differen things.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire.
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