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  1. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Crappler Extraordinaire

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2005 4:14pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Q: But don't grapplers have to reach me first?
    A: Yes they do. However, the deceptive, quick, and expolosive nature of the shot (takedown) makes this relatively easy allowing you only one solid attack with which you must KO your opponent to avoid grappling. Should you fail, you'll likely end up on the ground or at least entangled witn your opponent.
    Q: Couldn't I just hit sidestep the shot?

    A: Theorists believe that the shoot is executed from a great distance like a football tackle. This is why most believe that a simple side step, palm strike to the ear, or knee to the face will take down any grappler trying to shoot because they can see it coming. Effective shoots are used from close range and are typically set up via punch combinations or by causing the opponent to break their balance prior to shooting.
    Bold added
    To clarify, I think that sound groundfighting skill are essential to any well rounded MAist. I’ve taken a few classes in BJJ myself to augment my stand-up skills. But aren’t these two quotes contradictory?

    As far as multiple opponents, why not get a few people together and try it in a sparing environment? Let us know what actually worked and what didn’t.
  2. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 3:37am


     Style: Taco Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's suggestions for additional info on questions...

    Q. Why is it that although I hear a lot about the necessity for learning grappling when I see the results from many of the recent MMA matches, many of the recent ones are won by striking, and also a lot of BJJ black belts are not dominating these competitions like I would expect? Examples: Liddell vs. Couture UFC 52, Fedor, Cro-Cop, TUF BJJ black belt not winning, etc.

    A. All successful MMA fighters train in grappling and groundfighting as well as striking arts, mostly boxing and Muy Thai. What you see occurring is that over time the bar has been raised in grappling, and skills have become higher. Gracie challenges and early UFC's illustrated the result when people did not train grappling - they were easily taken down and submitted. Over time the MMA fighters games have become more well-rounded. Those who grapple only like some BJJ black belts have failed to adequately cross-train in striking arts, or are weaker there, resulting at times in them getting KTFO'd. Fighters have also modified approaches in grappling vale tudo style resulting in very effective ground 'n' pound attacks. Submissions are harder to achieve in MMA attire with nothing to grasp and gloves.

    The lesson from this is not to ignore or discount grappling, but train it as one part of a well-rounded game. Dictate a fight to your terms, migrating to an area you are strong but an opponent is weak and exploit this. Train 'alive' in grappling and striking. Respect groundfighting, train in it, utilize it, but don't be a teenage BJJ nutrider.



    Q: What about multiple opponents?

    A: There is no evidence that striking is any safer than grappling when fighting multiple opponents. Fighting several attackers is a losing proposition for anyone, grappler or striker. It's not impossible but it is very unlikely. People who think they can fight multiple people without getting seriously hurt tend to have watched a few too many kung fu movies.

    The best defense in this situation is to run away.

    B: The second best defense is to have a weapon (or three).

    Grappling and ground-fighting skills are essential in a
    multiple opponent scenario with weapons involved. Put
    simply put you need grappling/groundfighting skills to
    utilize a weapon effectively when escape is not an option.

    A weapon is not a magic wand. It often requires time or
    multiple successful attacks to remove an attacker from the
    fight. In the meantime dog-pack tactics are likely to be
    employed against you. A multiple opponent scenario where
    escape and evasion is not possible is by definition “close quarters”.
    To escape from a clinch, takedown, tackle, or pin requires
    personal understanding of how it is executed. It may take
    minutes for an attacker who has been stabbed to cease all
    resistance, and a bludgeoned opponent may collapse on you or
    pass out with a death grip on parts of your anatomy.

    No part of a multiple opponent scenario is pleasant to
    contemplate.. but whether you can run or must fight, the
    grappling and groundfighting skill-sets are essential if you
    want to live through a bad situation. Hopefully you won’t have
    to use them, but they are critical insurance when things go
    pear-shaped.
    Suggest adding (mostly to handle criticism):

    The striker vs. grappler argument to multiple opponents involve the strategy of keeping one opponent between you and the others, and inflict damage by striking. Then move to the next opponent and repeat. This strategy would argue that grappling (meaning moving to a mount/side mount on one opponent) would allow others to close distance and place you in trouble.

    In reality, although there is some merit to that argument, multiple opponents will most likely try and capitalize on their advantage by simultaneously closing distance rapidly and grapple, many wrestling one to the ground where they can hold them for others to pound on. This offers the same problem to defending a shoot, except now it's magnified as many are trying at once. A trained grappler and groundfighter will be able to react better to keeping from being taken down. Also a trained grappler can also put one opponent between themselves and the others, take them down using one to obstruct others, and utilize positions of advantage that have greater mobility such as knee on stomach combined with striking. This is a much higher percentage situation than a Shaw brothers movie gymnastic striking approach. For best percentages, see above - sprint to a populated area.
    _________________________


    Q: What about anti-grappling?

    A: In addition to the refutations above, the whole idea of "Anti-grappling" is absurd. If I were to claim to be practicing "anti-striking" every time I shot a double leg takedown, you'd laugh, wouldn't you? "Anti-grappling" is just as ridiculous an idea.

    An entire range of fighting cannot be dismissed with just a few techniques.
    A. There is no such thing as anti-grappling. Anti-grappling is grappling. Many times this refers to various types of clinch grappling techniques found in different arts to prevent takedowns. Ex: various versions of whizzers, underhooks, sprawls found in different arts with various names.

    _______________
    Q: Ok, you convinced me. But it looks scary. I don't wanna get my arm broken by a three hundred pound ex-wrestler!

    A: It isn't. The tap-out system allows for a maximum of safety, much more than sparring in striking arts.
    A. With about a year's solid quality BJJ training you can tool a three hundred pound current wrestler.


    Q. I don't want to get injured. I tried rolling that hard and I tweaked my arm/leg/back/neck/left testicle.

    A. Train safe with good protective gear like a cup, mouthpiece, headgear. Tap early when you're outmaneuvered and keep rolling. After keeping at it consistently you'll learn better technique and avoid injuries, and your body will respond and toughen up. You'll lose weight, have better cardio, have more confidence, and know your improvements will work.


    Q. I'm too old for this. My body can't take that abuse.

    A. Helio could still smash black belts at 75 yrs old. There are senior and masters divisions in tournaments. You can bring your cane or walker, but you can't use it while rolling.
  3. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/07/2005 7:55pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont think anyone's brought this up yet but what are people's opinions about ighting someone witha wepaon using grappling and more to the point groundfighting?

    To my mind if you have any suspiscion that the guy has a wepaon then this is one of the few times you don't want to go to the ground,.

    I now that grappling will be involved initially in controlling the weapon but surely from the control rather than anything else you would want to manouever the guy to clear a path and then run?

    This idea comes from my personal theory that if they have one knife they have two (The damn things cost about £3.00) so if they have one free arm they can clear the wepaon and stab you.

    Anyway, what do people think of this? (Sorry if this has been covered and I missed it).
  4. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/07/2005 9:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay

    To my mind if you have any suspiscion that the guy has a wepaon then this is one of the few times you don't want to go to the ground,.
    QUEER!


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  5. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2005 11:51pm

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     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay
    I dont think anyone's brought this up yet but what are people's opinions about ighting someone witha wepaon using grappling and more to the point groundfighting?
    If the system doesn't cover this facet within their curriculum - grappling or otherwise - you shouldn’t waste your time with that system.

    To my mind if you have any suspiscion that the guy has a wepaon then this is one of the few times you don't want to go to the ground,.
    Unless you're a psychic, you're never going to know. Always assume the man is armed, that tends to put you into the right frame of mind, likewise you'll be less apt to get into a fight over stupid reasons. Listen, most 'clever' attackers will never let you know they've got a knife until they've cut you or stabbed you with it. The crap you see on the martialist is almost never going to happen, you lose the element of surpise -



    Why phil the idiot is holding the blade like this is simply beyond my comprehension.

    I now that grappling will be involved initially in controlling the weapon but surely from the control rather than anything else you would want to manouever the guy to clear a path and then run?
    You're asking an impossible question, seeing how a real fight almost never follows the script of scenario based training.
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 9/07/2005 11:53pm at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  6. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 6:57am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Thanks, that cleared loads of stuff up for me...
  7. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 7:03am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    If the system doesn't cover this facet within their curriculum - grappling or otherwise - you shouldn’t waste your time with that system.
    Im a newb to grappling, I assume it'll come later on then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    You're asking an impossible question, seeing how a real fight almost never follows the script of scenario based training.
    All the trainning you do is scenario based, it's just sometimes the scenario is that you want to knock the other guy out.

    All I meant was that if I see someone with a knife, I want to run the hell away, why is it a bad idea to train for doing that rather than just using normal sparring where you try to beat on the other guy?
  8. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 8:37am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay
    All I meant was that if I see someone with a knife, I want to run the hell away, why is it a bad idea to train for doing that rather than just using normal sparring where you try to beat on the other guy?

    Sparring could be good for being able to evade an attack and give yourself an opportunity to get away. Hopefully without being too badly injured.
    Last edited by Lefty; 9/08/2005 8:45am at .
  9. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 8:49am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Sparring could be good for being able to evade an attack and give yourself an opportunity to get away. Hopefully without being too badly injured.
    What I meant was give one guy a knife and put him between you and a door then you try to get out the door without getting stabbed.
  10. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 9:03am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are suggesting do a role playing scenario type of training in a house? Yeah, it may be useful for defending in a specific environment. But the big challenge will be getting past the attacker in real time.:ninjadanc

    Sparring for the purposes of trying not to get stabbed is vital in that situation you described because thats the big challenge in getting through the door.

    Knives dont just jump out of hands at the slightest roundhouse kick or just hang in mid air after a static block. Learning to redirect and get control of the weapon takes a lot of practice at realistic speed and intensity.
    Last edited by Lefty; 9/08/2005 10:01am at .
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