Posted On:10/25/2004 1:28pm
Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
When you know of any I'm certain you'll let me know.
By the way, have you hit your growth spurt yet?
I was big enough for your mom to enjoy.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
Posted On:10/25/2004 1:45pm
Style: 10th Planet JJ
There's a lot of things wrong with KM both as a system and as a business in the US, but KFss is absolutely off the mark in his little rant.
You say what about my rice?
Posted On:10/25/2004 1:53pm
KFss is also a SCARS cultist. He's pretty much off the mark on most things he says.
I restore the Balance
Posted On:10/25/2004 8:50pm
Style: I wear pants
Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
I was big enough for your mom to enjoy.
Doubtful ken, seeing how you're only 5-ft 2.
Crap, you're shorter than most females. :toothy12:
(Clicks ignore button)
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
Posted On:10/25/2004 8:53pm
Originally Posted by HAPKO3
but KFss is absolutely off the mark in his little rant.
Gee Hap, that was an informative counterargument.
I guess you put me in my place....
Posted On:10/25/2004 9:14pm
Style: Boxing/Muay Thai/JJJ
I've learned some gun disarms in JJ. They claim that they were proven to work by use of a paintball gun, or something similar.
Any sort of technique like this is extremely risky. You may screw up the technique and get yourself killed. This is why you should give the mugger your wallet, and only use a gun disarm if they say "All right, get in the car.", or something that gives you the distinct feeling that they want to harm you.
Posted On:10/25/2004 10:23pm
Philadelphia Inquirer krav maga article excerpts :
I met Hotmer for real at a martial-arts school in South Philly. By day, Hotmer, 20, studies communications at Temple. By night, she teaches krav maga. In Hebrew, krav maga means "contact combat." It's the official defensive-tactics system of the Israeli military. I asked Hotmer to give me a demo. As a former wrestler, I wanted to take her down, roll with her on the mat.
Hotmer refused. She's incapable of roughhousing for fun, she said. She has only two speeds: nice and mean. Doing krav maga, she's mean. She would, she warned, maim or kill me.
In krav maga, the only rule is that there are no rules - except one: Don't get hurt. It is, above all, a defensive art. "The aim is not to subdue your attacker or beat someone up," Kirk says. "The aim is to extricate yourself from a threatening situation with a minimum of violence and personal injury."
Let me tell you something folks, if you don't hurt and subdue your attackers, you have not eliminated the threat. Individuals such as HAPKO3 would love for you to believe krav maga is not a waste of time, but the evidence proves otherwise.
Bullshido Wikipedia Delegate
Posted On:10/25/2004 11:51pm
Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ
He's talking about primary aims.
And I know for darned sure against someone with a knife, if I'm wearing closed toe shoes, I can run 100 meters in under 15 (under 13 if I have sneakers) and I can go for almost 300 meters before I can't run anymore at top speed. I don't care what condition he's in, I want to be gone. Not all situations require that.
And if you'd ever attended a Krav class or read Imi Sde-Or and Eyal Yanilov's book on the principles, you'd see how each circumstance shows the escape version, then the beatdown version.
Posted On:10/25/2004 11:58pm
Originally Posted by samurai_steve
Kungfools, you are incorrect in saying Krav Maga has "no principles."
Utilizing faulty fighting principles is akin to not really having any principles at all. This was the point of the piece.
And from my own experience, it has been "perceive, redirect, neutralize (generally by striking the person in the face), weapon removal, escape/continue fight."
I believe the krav maga methodology for firearm disarmament is to first “redirect the line of fire,” control the weapon, counterattack, and then disarm. I have a problem with this inflexible doctrine. First, you can control a pistol without ever having to touch it and at the same time maintain control over the field of fire. Removing yourself from the line of fire is fine if you’re only concerned about your welfare, but you can actually get bystanders killed if you don’t know what you’re doing. Second, the krav maga’s approach to creating chaos -striking to the attackers face- is not the only target available for dominating an attacker, by limiting your strikes to a specific zone on the body, limits your options as well. Three, the disarm, this may come as a surprise to you, but you can dominate and disable an attacker without ever having to disarm the attacker.
As an example, if I have to kill this guy and walk away, why in the world would I want to place my prints on the firearm for the detectives to discover?
Disarms generally end up with the assailant having a broken finger because it got caught in the trigger-guard when the weapon removal technique was implied.
This is exactly why you should always remove the trigger guards off your training equipment; rifle, submachine gun and pistol.
Imagine an assailant points a gun at your chest within arms-length with their right hand holding the gun. To give a brief description (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME):
Actually, you should practice this at home, just don’t do it with a ‘real’ firearm.
1. Left hand comes up in an "L" or "C" shape with fingers together and thumb splayed and seizes the barrel or cylinder from underneath with fingers to the outside and thumb to the inside.
2. Momentum of grab pushes gun to your right several inches, taking you out of line of fire. Force is then appled by essentially "pushing" the gun into the assailant and stepping towards them with the left foot or with multiple steps if necessary, making it face sideways rather than straight at you now. Even if the assailant pulls the trigger, it will not hit you.
I’m afraid that advice will only serve in getting folks shot. You should practice moving in simultaneously as you reach for the firearm. Not only will this make you faster, but helps to eliminate the space between yourself and the attacker and the risk of a counter. If the attacker is adequately trained he will fall on his back to instantly restore the distance creating the ’Pull’ dynamic and shoots you dead.
Ask yourself this one thing, what do you suppose occurs when the firearm is just half a foot or more outside the reach of your much vaunted technique? You see the problem.
3. Depending on the range, elbow or straight-punch the assailant until they are stunned.
I don’t know how many ways I can say this, but applying force in that manner you suggest will result in distance, and distance is the last thing you’ll ever want to create in any firearm disarmament procedure. Consider if you will, does that straight punch enable you to get closer physically to the attacker? Absolutely not. The execution of such a maneuver will “push” the attacker away from you. This is so simple to comprehend.
So not to confuse you, let’s take away the firearm for a moment, if I’m holding your hand -no it doesn’t matter how or what position I’m holding it- and shove you hard to the face, what is the relation of both bodies in terms of placement? Did I get closer or maintain the space and even moved you further away. Anybody can test this, grab your buddy, wife or whomever, you’re going to see what I’m stating is fact.
4. WIthout allowing your hand to pass in front of the barrel, take your punching hand and cup it under the gun and grasp tightly. Then, forcefully twist the gun so that the handle rotates INTO the assailant, thereby breaking his finger if it remains in the guard.
You guys are really fixated on the firearm aren‘t you? By attempting this maneuver, your own words tell me you are farther away than you should be in disarmaments. How? You cannot perform this sort body dynamics without the element of space. There is only so much space two individuals can occupy at any given point.
In any event, I’m aware of the “technique” you’re referring to because I’ve analyzed it in the past from the photos provided by krav maga in Black Belt magazine so you’re not sharing anything groundbreaking or novel.
Further, you didn’t share with the folks that the firearm may have jammed and the attacker is still standing and still a threat.
Your attackers not going to just stand there and let you back away with his gun allowing you to un-jam the firing mechanism just so you can shoot him. You guys need to stop living in a fantasy world. I realize that’s a bit harsh, but from my perspective, your advocacy of faulty principles and methodologies will get individuals killed. So, you tell me, who’s worse?
Last edited by Kungfoolss; 10/26/2004 12:05am at .
Posted On:10/26/2004 12:20am
I'll ask again: Have you read the book?
1. 3rd party concerns are discussed in the book. Which means different means of resolution.
2. Krav Maga focuses on "high-percentage" targets intended to do the most damage possible. This could be their nose, their eyes, etc. There is no limit, however, in the example I gave, the face is generally exposed.
3. Simultaneous movement/grabs are used in different circumstances, such as if the weapon is aimed at the head rather than the chest, given that the hand has much further to travel.
4. Every system has its methods. This method was based on a military combat system altered for civilian and municipal usage.
5. In the technique I described, immediately after seizing the weapon, you move in on the assailant while forcing the gun towards his body. Even if the guy fell backwards, your forward movement would put you on top of him and maintain the gun's sideways position.
6. Distance is a flaw in every hand-to-hand technique vs. weapons. At that point, you employ other means of distraction such as making them look away from you or performing the technique midspeech, or waiting for a more opportune time. The flaw you're articulating is far from unique to Krav Maga.
7. If the assailant were allowed to move away, yes, it would cause a problem. That is why by maintaining the grip on the firearm and keeping it angled away from you and continuing to press the weapon against them will prohibit what you're describing.
8. When I performed the disarms and when we learned it, we were never more than half a cubit (arms-length) away from the assailant. The photos you saw may have exaggerated distance to allow the technique to be better seen. Without seeing them, I don't know.
9. Who said that using the gun as a firearm was the only option in Krav Maga? My instructor teaches us to put away the weapon, throw it far, or use it as a clubbing implement against the assailant. He always told us that we should assume the gun is in perfect working order when the assailant has it, and that it's unloaded when we're holding it. You are making a number of attributions and assumptions about technique which do not hold up with reality.
10. Every system has its weaknesses. My instructor inserted elements from muay thai and BJJ into the system to make it more comprehensive.
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