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  1. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2004 11:38pm

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    The Mcdojo of krav maga "gun defenses"

    Topic: krav maga gun defense article featured in Black Belt magazine

    By Kungfoolss ( originally posted at the SCFF 11/16/03, revised and updated for Bullshido )

    My first response was to ignore this article completely. The reason I suppose had much to do with the predictable fawning, adulation and cultish praise I witnessed from the krav maga sycophants whenever the existence of this piece was broached. Having seen the same pictures in a previous krav maga gun defense article (For which I addressed their flaws in the past), I assumed it may have been a reprint. Well, I found a little time the other day to catching up on my reading and decided to take a moment to read John Whitman's article. After reading it, I now believe it deserves my attention. It is my belief the readers will benefit from another in-depth, stellar analysis and I will again prove to the general audience why krav maga is widely regarded by professionals as just the latest martial Fad to hit the public. And exactly the reason why a superior system such as ours is governed by principles rather than techniques, the emphasis of every other system on the planet. Let's get started.

    Whitman- "...krav maga teaches...gun defenses...that reduces the number of techniques you must learn...which results in shorter training time and faster application under stress."
    Translation: krav maga is technique-based rather than on the more reliable science of principles. Given the method of rote being employed by krav maga, there is little-to-zero cognitive thought given to the random variances that inevitably pop up in lethal confrontations. If the response is to react automatically in a preprogrammed manner under stress, individuals will lose their lives. It should not escape the notice of professionals that every other word out of Mr. Whitman's mouth is an overriding concern and emphasis on technique. Almost nowhere in the article does he state, the principle that governs the technique, ergo, the need for having to conduct this analysis in the first place.
    Case in point, a practitioner of karate was shot to death in Brooklyn, New York, attempting to protect his wife from a pair of armed muggers; a man and woman. As one the male attacker attempted to steal the victims wife's purse, the stylist was able to kick the weapon knocking it clear of the attackers hand. The second mugger retaining her gun shot the victim in the chest. The first mugger upon recovering his firearm shot the victim for good measure killing ending the victims life. The muggers escaped with the purse which contained the sum total of $10.

    Whitman- "Any technique that moves your body by stepping, twisting, or leaning requires more muscle activity and offers the gunman telltale signs, triggering his response to fire the weapon. Instead, your initial movement must be as undetectable and small as possible..."
    There is a glaring flaw with this approach, it does not take into consideration the psychological properties governing the fighter (in this case, the stylistic defender) and attacker, as well as the physical aspects. By omitting this very crucial science, the defenders very expression may instinctively cause the attacker to shoot him before he can even begin to move his hand for the intended disarmament. Comprehending the psychophysiological processes of both the fighter and attacker is crucial. There is practically zero comprehension of these facts within the krav maga style.

    Whitman- "In addition, two-handed defense decrease your length, while one-handed defenses allow you to stretch out, making the technique more effective at greater distances..."

    Not only is this a dangerous assumption, but a foolish one as well. As we are aware, the further we extend our skeletal and muscular structure, there is a degradation of structural power. The reverse is true as well, too much compression and we suffer the same power loss. Those of you now may be saying, "Then how in the world do we increase our range without sacrificing structural power then Kungfoolss?"

    Simple rotation.

    Not only do you gain additional range, at the same time you 'naturally' reposition your body moving it from the field of fire. Depending on the range to your intended target, you must achieve an equilibrium of sorts on just how much to extend your skeletal and muscular structure VS diminishing compression power. The 45 angle of alignment of the skeletal and muscle groups is used for optimal contraction and protraction purposes, keeping in mind that every human being is structurally unique, each with their own strengths and weakness. A taller man with longer limbs will naturally have an easier time reaching his targets than that of a shorter male with a shorter reach, therefore the taller individual will not have to extend his limbs as much as the shorter male may thereby maintaining the ability to generate greater structural power.

    This is the glaring difference between a system governed by principles and one managed by techniques. A krav maga stylist will say, this is how we do our technique, but are incapable of stating precisely what scientific principles that enable it to be applied correctly, be functional, or even how the movement and mechanics apply universally. This was one of the biggest complaints from my workout partner when he recalled his time in the martial arts. They would never go into detail how and why certain things were done. Such systems and styles do not enable their practitioners to educate themselves.

    Whitman- "krav maga techniques assume that once you've made an initial redirection, the assailant will pull back on the weapon to put you in front of the muzzle again. (If he doesn't pull, the techniques are that much easier.)
    John states if your attacker does not pull away, their gun defenses are much easier to utilize. Consider, what happens to this myopic view when the krav maga ignoramus's actions, results in a 'Pull dynamic' itself which is another discussion altogether. Returning to the our discussion, allow me to share something with you folks, it does not matter how your attackers firearm is positioned, it can be up, down, sideways, or diagonally positioned, as long as you maintain control over which direction that firearm is aimed as you are taking the balance of the attacker all the while pushing through and dominating that individual, it does not matter what manner that the gun is being held by the attacker. Only a krav maga amateur would allow himself to be so focused on the weapon and become oblivious to the other body weapons of the attacker.

    Whitman - Continuing- "Therefore, you must burst in, putting your weight inward and downward on the gun. If the weapon remains up in a shooting position, [the attacker] will have more control of it; but once you get the weapon down and in, his control will be limited. You must be prepared to move your feet to keep putting weight on the weapon even if he struggles or collapses from your punch."
    Completely unnecessary. The arm controls the firearm (in the case of a pistol; the variables will differ with a rifle or similar implement); the firearm does not control the arm, you therefore have to maintain control over the attackers arm. In addition, by committing a significant amount of mass -subsequently your balance- you sacrifice your ability react quickly to altering variables. Such as, the armed attacker twisting his way about of your grasp. Simple physics really, any time you apply force against any cylindrical object -the attackers firearm; specifically the barrel in this instance- any rotation from the right or to the left side will easily divert, dislodge or redirect the applied force. The advantage now goes to your attacker, whom by redirecting the applied force intended to unbalance him, has now turned the tables and unbalanced the krav maga practitioner in turn. I don’t care what part of the attacker you intend to grab- firearm, wrist, arm- any force applied in this manner will yield the same exact results every single time.

    There is a correct process for doing this, however, krav maga’s approach is obviously flawed and rife with structural failings. When you penetrate and dominate that armed attacker, he can maintain his grip of the firearm all he desires, while he may believe that he is in control just because he still has his firearm, that control will be an illusion. Folks, remember what I stated earlier, the human body is at its structural weakest when the arm is at its full extension (which is why the armbar you see in all the MMA tournaments are so effective), not only will you be inside and past the danger zone, you have set up the attackers limb for a possible break.

    Remember folks, it's the arm directing that firearm and not the other way around. Mr. Whitman would rather approach these issues ass-backwards, I prefer not to get individuals killed through the dissemination of faulty information.

    Whitman- "Furthermore, a good counterattack will help you make a proper defense. For instance, when facing a threat from the front, krav maga's counterattack is a punch to the face. Properly executed, the blow not only inflicts damage but also helps you burst forward and put more weight on the gun."
    There's so many things wrong on a multitude of levels, I almost don't know where to begin. For the sake of argument, allow us to remove the firearm as a variable for the moment, and perform the same test. You're standing in front of your attacker and you punch him solidly to the face. What is the correct somatic response? That's right, you are in essence 'Pushing' the attacker and sending him away from you. Okay, let's put back in place the firearm variable. OH NO! We've inadvertently created a 'Pull dynamic'; by holding on to an attacker with one hand and shoving him away with the other creates the pull. This means we're dead. (Explanation: You never ‘Pull’ on a weapon, but always ‘Push’. Without comprehending how body mechanics function, you can hope to create a ’Push’ dynamic and reality create a ’Pull’ ending your life.)

    Now, let us say for the sake of illogic, discarding our rational sense, we foolishly believe krav maga's TECHNIQUES have validity and we're going to give it a try. Confronted in the same manner we grab the gun single-handed so we can get maximum extension and redirect the line of fire (Whitman's words not mine), we immediately counterattack punching straight to the face of our attacker driving him backward. As we burst in, we get shot. What have we done wrong?

    We attempted to fight the Laws of Physics and lost.

    It's real simple folks, when you attempt to apply a leverage with one hand while simultaneously directing force to our foes centerline; the sternum and above, this will propel your attacker backwards and away from you. At the same instant, straightening out his leveraged hand as well as your own. Keep in mind, in this particular scenario the attacker is not even resisting the krav maga stylist, the stylists own application of force is causing this all to happen on its own. If the attacker is not phased by the attack, the krav maga buffoon is in dire straights. Some folks are capable of taking strikes to the head and laugh. I can’t emphasize this enough, NEVER rely solely on a somatic response to win a confrontation, it can get you killed. There is a chasm of difference between relying on the somatic nervous system and utilizing this principle to enable you to dominate your attackers. Everybody utilizes the somatic response to a lesser or greater degree irrespective if they believe so or not, the flaw lies in believing that the somatic response cannot be overridden and bypassed by the individual you are attempting to subdue. Moreover, don’t believe the propaganda put out by the idiotic stylists vegetating on the net, the practitioners of our system are well aware of this, otherwise there would be no reason for me to elucidate the point. Our system makes allowances for this very natural occurrence and protection mechanism of the human anatomy, thus the built in redundancies of the system.

    Getting back to the matter at hand, because krav maga advocates 'stretching out' for greater distances, the compression mechanics are already diminished and are not aided in the slightest as you drive the opponent further displacing his body in relation to your own.

    As for bursting in, sorry krav maga stooges, let me share a fact with you jokers. You cannot, I repeat, CANNOT shove an object away from you at arms length while at the same time attempting to close the distance to that object.

    This is a physical impossibility.

    The physics as well as the physiological properties of the human body will never allow it. The relative distance will always remain affixed regardless of your wishes to the contrary. Unless the shifting of angles to rotate an object on its axis is employed, you're never going to make it happen. Frankly, I don't believe the inflexibility of krav maga allows their students to make this distinction. Poor saps.

    (John Whitman discusses that once you have disarmed the attacker stripping him of his firearm, the defender should retreat and withdrawal)

    Whitman- "Your retreat is vital. Among the most common mistakes made in gun defense training is taking the weapon but remaining in close proximity to the gunman. Once the weapon is yours, create distance between yourself and the attacker."
    Never do this if your intent is to survive a lethal confrontation. For starters, the gun could be unloaded or a round's not chambered. The gun may even be incapable of firing because of the manner in which you manipulated the firearm. Krav maga advocates grabbing the pistol itself, to quote Mr. Whitman,

    "Not only will the slide not pinch you, but the defense you use will most likely keep the slide from operating, thus preventing a new round from cycling into the chamber."
    There's a problem with this folks, by preventing the mechanism of the firearm from cycling properly, what do you suppose can now occur? Yes, that's right, the gun may jam. You could end up with a stove pipe (a casing trapped in the slide after the bullet discharged) or worse a 'double feed' (A class 3 malfunction- where a bullet casing has not cleared with a fresh round pushing up behind it). This is not good when your life can be decided within a matter of a second or less. I can almost assure you that you'll never clear a class 3 malfunction in that amount of time, especially under stress. It's never going to happen.

    Gentlemen, when grappling a firearm may result in a serious malfunction which you may not be aware of, what exactly is the point of stripping the weapon from an attacker and then backing away before you've subdued him? Truthfully folks, don't grapple with a firearm you intend on using. It makes absolutely no sense to have this suicidal methodology.

    Perhaps, you doubt me? Well, let’s just see how accurate and on the money my assessment is shall we. Here is a response by John Whitman himself on in a 'Handgun disarming concerns - ejection port' thread explaining to a krav maga mite what occurs when their “gun defenses” techniques are utilized and I quote,

    “This question is often asked. The technique has been used in real life and has been tested many times in live fire practice (with optimal conditions for safety reasons). Neither the slide nor the brass cause injury to the defender. The most common result is that the weapon jams.”

    john whitman 9:54 am on 2.4.2003
    Allow me to reiterate that fact folks,

    THE MOST COMMON RESULT IS THAT THE WEAPON JAMS.

    You have to ask yourselves -the krav maga idiots out there- what exactly the point of disarming an attacker then backing away with a jammed and nonfunctioning firearm before you’ve gained control over the situation and subdued the threat? Is this truly “practical defense” as you retards love telling the world?

    A worst case scenario- As you backed away, assured with the knowledge that you now are in possession of the weapon, the attacker knows the guns unloaded, or worse, he's got a backup gun you never knew he had. Now, you're dead from a empty or malfunctioning pistol and because you were stupid. This is the problem with amateurs and their fixation with the weapons during the course of a confrontation. If you take the attacker out with your body weapons, you don't have to worry about his gun, you won't have to concern yourself ever with retaliation. Stay there and dominate that man, the key to a successful firearm disarmament will always be by maintaining that close proximity, you will have greater control over the Field of Fire and the ability to take that man out.


    Sadly, there is a more disturbing aspect to this faulty methodology. It clearly demonstrates krav maga practitioners are unable to control their attackers much less finish them off. This Truth is undeniable. -->

    Whitman- "However, sound tactics must at least include the possibility of using the weapon if you believe your life is still in danger. If the gunman charges after you once you've taken his weapon, the assault clearly is not over."
    (Head thuds against the floor) Well, DUH! Mr. Whitman, you lost control of the situation by allowing the attacker to recover. Are you really this feebleminded that I have to spell this out to you? Christ Almighty. It's enough to make you question whether or not if some of these guys are truly brain dead or just inbreds.

    Oh by the way John, what good is that firearm going to be against a charging attacker if it's jammed? :eusa_doh:

    Concluded on following post~
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 10/25/2004 12:58am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  2. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2004 11:39pm

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    Concluded

    Posted by spunky 8:02 am on 2.18.2003 at the Gun Seminar - Sacramento thread-

    “Well, last night we had a seminar with Ernie Kirk and John Whitman teaching gun take aways. They covered just 2 with the combatives as well, and it was great! Just covering the 2 in the 2+ hours we had was the way to do it.”
    Folks, this is almost enough to make you cry. It does not take 2-hours to learn 2-sets of disarmament movements. That is just asinine. What is this, disarmament seminars for the martial arts Special Ed? 5-minutes at the most is all that is required to master a series of firearm disarmament movements and not a second longer. I’m being extremely generous in that regard. When I instruct others, I can easily go through dozens of firearm disarmament movements (none of which are identical) within a 15-minute period. The cause for this inexcusable time differential between the krav maga stooges and myself is clear.

    First, the emphasis of rote and repetitive training by the Mcdojoer’s, repeating fighting sequences ad nauseum is not only fundamentally incorrect, but turns you into an unthinking robot as well. Second, the doling out of information to string potential customers along in the hopes of signing them up and entering into krav maga’s Mcdojo contracts is morally reprehensible. Remember, while the krav maga sycophants proudly boast the fact that they can “defend” themselves against a weapon -such as a knife- what they will not tell you is that the Mcdojo instructors won’t allow the teachings of any information on acutal weapon usage until the student has literally divested years of his life (not to mention monetary assets) into the program. That is patently dishonest. It does not take years to learn how to utilize an edged weapon effectively. While this may apply to the handling of a samurai sword, but a knife, no way. There is really is no way to justify this farce.

    In closing, krav maga is a fine reality-based program for yuppie-types and Hollywood celebrities that want to give the illusion of toughness, but when it comes down to thoroughly researching and analyzing the available facts, krav maga falls well short of its intended goal and perpetrates a fraud by pretending to be a viable system when it clearly is not.

    Remember, I did not make any of this up, these words come straight from Mr. Whitman who has only himself to blame.
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 10/25/2004 12:10am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  3. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2004 11:53pm

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    Nice articles about Krav Maga. Have any about the Bullshit that SCARS teaches?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
  4. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/24/2004 11:55pm

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    Fascinating.

    Kungfoolss, what is the SCARS answer to the unarmed firearm defence problem?
  5. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/24/2004 11:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken
    Nice articles about Krav Maga. Have any about the Bullshit that SCARS teaches?
    When you know of any I'm certain you'll let me know.

    By the way, have you hit your growth spurt yet? :laughing6
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  6. Reikon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2004 2:11am


     Style: Knife-jitsu o=]==>

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    Nice, however, if you get a cold shell stuck in the barrel can't you just pull the slide back and eject it? Wouldn't it be sensable to assume to pull the slide back after taking the gun, that wayyou can see whether the gun is jammed/empty/or if it's the last pulled then you got a decent blunt instrument.

    Also, were it a revolver, grab teh cylinder.
  7. ace is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/25/2004 9:51am


     Style: mixed +

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    Guess you have never been to the projects? Gun defense is a gun.
  8. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2004 10:47am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shumagorath
    Fascinating.

    Kungfoolss, what is the SCARS answer to the unarmed firearm defence problem?
    To punch the guy with unstoppable and unblockable strikes, kick them then pull off a boston crab.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
  9. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2004 12:52pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
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    Kungfools, you are incorrect in saying Krav Maga has "no principles."

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...aga+Principles

    And from my own experience, it has been "perceive, redirect, neutralize (generally by striking the person in the face), weapon removal, escape/continue fight." Disarms generally end up with the assailant having a broken finger because it got caught in the trigger-guard when the weapon removal technique was implied.

    Imagine an assailant points a gun at your chest within arms-length with their right hand holding the gun. To give a brief description (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME):

    1. Left hand comes up in an "L" or "C" shape with fingers together and thumb splayed and seizes the barrel or cylinder from underneath with fingers to the outside and thumb to the inside.

    2. Momentum of grab pushes gun to your right several inches, taking you out of line of fire. Force is then appled by essentially "pushing" the gun into the assailant and stepping towards them with the left foot or with multiple steps if necessary, making it face sideways rather than straight at you now. Even if the assailant pulls the trigger, it will not hit you.

    3. Depending on the range, elbow or straight-punch the assailant until they are stunned.

    4. WIthout allowing your hand to pass in front of the barrel, take your punching hand and cup it under the gun and grasp tightly. Then, forcefully twist the gun so that the handle rotates INTO the assailant, thereby breaking his finger if it remains in the guard.

    5. Return the gun back to initial position. Pull it straight towards you with no upward angle to guarantee their broken finger clears the guard. Step away from the assailant and engage from a more advantageous position.

    ==

    All of the gun disarms I have learned use this same principle, except for circumstances where a grab is not immediately available (if they have a gun pressed against your back or shoulders). Still, the same principle of redirect, then neutralize the assailant hold true.
  10. HAPKO3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/25/2004 1:06pm

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    Yet another poster talking about **** he doesn't know about.
    Silly stylist.
    You say what about my rice?
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