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  1. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    2,468

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:02pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WOW! Ok Leo in my opinion I suggest you run very far away before it's too late.

    JP,
    Any vid of anything that you described above? It's so disturbing that I actually want to see it in action.
  2. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Brooklyn, NY
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    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin.74
    WOW! Ok Leo in my opinion I suggest you run very far away before it's too late.

    JP,
    Any vid of anything that you described above? It's so disturbing that I actually want to see it in action.
    Ronin, you've got a pm coming your way.

    Leo, here's some advice. Its in your best interest, not this forums or mine. Here are you best options:

    If you want to stay in that school, and you're happy there, stop posting now. Don't ask your instructors about video, and don't bring me up. Go back to the school, forget this board exists and forget having an intelligent open ended discussion about these concerns I've raised with your teachers. They're not interested and they're best interests are served by keeping you in the dark in and in the fold, so to speak. You pushing is just going to get you labeled as somebody full of ego, who is a know it all, who doesn't have the rigth to ask questions.

    You do have the right and the obligation to question everything.

    If you want to grow as a fighter ask questions, go talk to Matt Thornton there in portland about martial arts cults and as yourself honestly how many of these earmarks are found in your present school.
    Last edited by JP; 12/18/2007 5:17pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  3. CoffeeFan is offline
    CoffeeFan's Avatar

    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sherwood, OR
    Posts
    2,180

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, great post JP. Personal experience is a much better way to get a point across. I hope Leo takes your advice.

    Q: During these moments where you try to set things afire or bend bars, did anyone ever speak out against doing such silly things?
  4. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeFan
    Wow, great post JP. Personal experience is a much better way to get a point across. I hope Leo takes your advice.

    Q: During these moments where you try to set things afire or bend bars, did anyone ever speak out against doing such silly things?

    Coffeefan,

    I don't really know how to explain this without sounding soft in the head or like a *****, so I won't try.

    A person is smart. People as a group are pretty fucking dumb. In a group situation you're afraid to be the first person to stand up and scream WTF?! So it took us a while, but we did, by leaving the organization. There was a lot of conditioning in place already, as I said above, things like this built up over time. I think because they saw the money to be made and they are very shrewd. They made a lot of money off of gullible and stupid people. I include myself in that category.

    The best part of all of this, is that nobody ever asked for a demonstration. And Barbara Niggel for damn sure was never able to demonstrate this stuff to any degree nor did she ever offer.

    The no-touch knock out stuff was always demonstrated by her on the same student, who "knew her ilmu/energy" and who "worked with her all the time" see where I'm going with this? When she tried this with a new student or somebody else and the result was less than dramatic, that person was never selected for demonstrations again.

    My only satisfaction is that, in some part of our heads, the instructors at the new york city branch kept 99% of the bullshit out of the school's curriculum. Our training stayed pretty phyical. The sparring was a little harder, no full-contact by any means, but still better and there was a lot of physical conditioning.
    Last edited by JP; 12/18/2007 5:25pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  5. Lord Of Chaos is offline

    Registered Member

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    RI
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    155

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:26pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i devoted a fair few years to a "pukulan" system (used to be spelled "poekoelon" or whatever) and it was essentially dutch- influenced silat. basically combative silat with a lot of boxing and a bit of standing grappling infused. never once was a i taught a "tiger" form or anything like that.

    truth be told, "pukulan" is not the proper term for any martial art. it's actually a dutch/ indo slang word for street fighting (rooted in the word "pugilist"). it's basically the indonesian mixed blood's version of silat and a catch- all term for what probably amounts to a gazillion different "types" of fighting in the former dutch occupied indonesian islands. any chinese influence seems highly unlikely, as the chinese were an ethnic minority in indonesia and very protective of their martial arts (usually called "kun tao- yet another catch- all term).

    i hate it when people pretend this **** is more involved than it actually is.
  6. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Brooklyn, NY
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    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 5:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Chaos
    i devoted a fair few years to a "pukulan" system (used to be spelled "poekoelon" or whatever) and it was essentially dutch- influenced silat. basically combative silat with a lot of boxing and a bit of standing grappling infused. never once was a i taught a "tiger" form or anything like that.

    truth be told, "pukulan" is not the proper term for any martial art. it's actually a dutch/ indo slang word for street fighting (rooted in the word "pugilist"). it's basically the indonesian mixed blood's version of silat and a catch- all term for what probably amounts to a gazillion different "types" of fighting in the former dutch occupied indonesian islands. any chinese influence seems highly unlikely, as the chinese were an ethnic minority in indonesia and very protective of their martial arts (usually called "kun tao- yet another catch- all term).

    i hate it when people pretend this **** is more involved than it actually is.
    This system, like many Poekoelan systems, gets shortened to this term. As part of an overall name of a system its fine. That being said, the "oe" is usually indicitave of a more dutch influence, whereas the "u" in its place usually is the anglicazation (spelling?) of the indonesian word.

    There are dozens of systems that include Poekoelan/pukulan as part of their names. Did you do the one mentioned here or another? Because they aren't ALL bullshit, just this one being talked about in THIS thread.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  7. Mas Leo is offline

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    6

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 7:19pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JP

    (much snipped...)

    Iím a little worn out for now. Iím gonna post this, and see what happens and post more later. Thanks for listening and Leo, do yourself a favor, go to Straight Blast Gym in Portland and have a blast. Matt Thornton is an excellent guy and very familiar with the concept of martial arts cults of which Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen has a disturbing number of ear marks for. Leo if you want to communicate off this board or call me post your email and Iíll get in touch.
    Thanks for all the food for thought, Justin, from your longer experience with PTT. I need to digest some of it in light of my own (limited) conception of what I think I'm looking for and getting from my training. I appreciate the dialogue.
  8. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
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    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 7:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Leo
    Thanks for all the food for thought, Justin, from your longer experience with PTT. I need to digest some of it in light of my own (limited) conception of what I think I'm looking for and getting from my training. I appreciate the dialogue.

    If you need to talk any of this stuff over let me know. And in the interest of you expanding your mind, bring me and the New York School up with Janesa and company.

    You will get a very tender and self-righteous explanation that will include phrases like "left for their own reasons" and "Are welcome to come back at any time" "Were very misguided" and possibly "Ungrateful and full of ego."

    I encourage you for yourself to show them this thread and ask questions and then decided what you really want for yourself. When I walked into that situation I wanted a surrogate family. My own was sorely lacking in the support department. The problem with wanting stuff like that is that somebody will always be eager to offer it to you. And it will likely be even more fucked up than the previous situation.

    Just be careful. You owe it to yourself to get the best out of your life.

    They offered me servitude which I mistook for being valued and cared for. Its easy to do. They're not all bad people, and your school is so friggin big that a lot of this, you might never feel or see. Its kept within the upper, read: indoctrinated, ranks.

    But please, feel free to bring me up to them, if they ask you for further details to be sure I am who I say, post an email you're comfortable with using and I'll get you whatever you need.

    Also, don't take my word I know what I'm talking about, I'm arranging to post video I hope, but ask me whatever you want. I'll do my best to answer.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  9. Mas Leo is offline

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    6

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 7:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Justin, it seems I don't have the account privilege to pm you. I'd appreciate talking offline a bit, if you're willing to pm me your contact info.
  10. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

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    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
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    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 7:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Leo
    Justin, it seems I don't have the account privilege to pm you. I'd appreciate talking offline a bit, if you're willing to pm me your contact info.

    Leo, I can't pm you. Email me here onesearch@gmail.com

    And here's what I meant about seminar prices and whatnot:

    http://www.poekoelan.com/?page_id=89

    Other arts do stuff like this, but the school heads are told by Barbara to aggressively push the attendance of these seminars. If a student can't afford it, they are encouraged to either enter a payment plan or organize fund-raisers to send students without the money to pay.

    I've been in attendance listening to Barbara Niggel berate school owners and school instructors who weren't pushing attendance aggressively enough or who didn't bring enough of their students.

    She claims its on the grounds of wanting to have as many people around her as possible. While this may be true the fact that people are attending to the tune of $500 a head for three days of training can't be a coincidence can it?
    Last edited by JP; 12/18/2007 7:39pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
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